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Subject: the West Vs. Islam
Muslim    8/25/2002 11:40:30 AM
A topic came up in the Israel board that I thought was more suited to be on this board, so I'm moving the discussion about over here. To Homplate Umpire: There is something about Islam that you should probably know, even in it's most perfect form, Islam CANNOT coexist in a western based world; meaning, Islam and the West do not and cannot mix, they can exist seperately, but one can't properly exist within the other. The reson for this is because Islam is a comprehensive idealogy, it is a complete way of life, it has answer for every question, from God to politics, from the privacy of one's home to public laws and regulations. What America wants is for muslims to forget about the political portion, to forget about the public laws, and to forget that Islam is a muslim's way of life. When America wants muslims to "moderate" Islam, it means that america want muslims to "loosen up" and forget some rules and aspects of Islam. Now as much Islam treats everyone equally (which it does), it does not leave any room for any alternatives in the political, economic, or any other field of life, a muslim must lead his life according to Islam and only Islam. I agree that many muslims in the world today aren't providing a good image of Islam, and all muslim leaders are providing an even worse image. I don't agree that America doesn't want to eradicate Islam and Muslims, the only problem is that it can't. The west sees Islam as a threat to their way of life, and they try to portray Islam as this barbaric, backwards, heartless, and Nazi-like religion, but none of that is true. Islam is a threat to the west, but not because of those reasons, Islam is a threat to the west because if the western population say a real sincere and accurate implimentaion of Islam, people will flock to it. This has been seen clearly in history of Islam, for 13 years in Mecca, the prophet only managed to gather around 100 muslims, after only ten years in medinah, the prophet - with his Islamic state - managed to gather an army (not counting the muslims who weren't in that army) of 10,000 muslims. The difference between the first 13 years and the last 10 was that in the last ten years, Islam was being fully implemented, it was no longer just a bunch of words, it was now a reality. And today is no exception, if a true and accurate implementaion of Islam was to exist today, I gurantee you will see the same results, people flocking in masses to either live under the authority of Islam, or become muslims. That is the real reason Islam is a threat to the west, it will take away their power, their glory. Islam was made to be a more than just a religion one practices on Fridays, or one month a year in Ramadan, Islam was made to be a way of life, in essence, Islam is the perfect design to how a civiliation should be, and the best part of it, anyone can join. It is this aspect of Islam that makes the west attack it and not other religions such as christianity, judaism, buddism, or any other religion. I am not asking you to become sypathetic, I am asking you to uderstand the nature of Islam, that it isn't as bad the west and the muslims make it seem. Islam is a blessing to mankind. Islam also has a rock solid foundation, one that is not built on any can of faith, it is built on Iman (best translation: Conclusive acknowledgement). I want it to be clear that I'm not talking about something great that you have to just believe in, I'm talking about something great that can be proven to be great and true. That is why the west (political not social) will always be at war with Islam, the west fears Islam, they know what it can become and will do anything in their power to stop it from happening. I can prove this to you, but I will need some time, until then I leave you all to think about all this and leave this topic open for discussions.
 
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Muslim    RE:timeless and spaceless things   9/3/2002 1:26:37 PM
"If time is cyclic, it has no source" The problem with this is that it can't be proven. Therefore, I reject it. Time is a law, like gravity, it can't be measured (seconds is not a measurement of time) it can't be touched, it can't be seen. It is abstract, all we know is that we go through it. Just like we know there is a force that pulls things towards the earth but we don't know what is that force, we call it gravity but we can't measure it. Time is time, nothing can exist outside of time except for the one who created time. We are like variables in a mathematical equation, we can't see the outside, but someone must've written us or else we wouldn't exist.
 
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American Kafir to Muslim    RE:timeless and spaceless things   9/4/2002 12:27:19 PM
>>"If time is cyclic, it has no source" The problem with this is that it can't be proven. Therefore, I reject it.<< If only you felt so skeptical about the man-made concept of "Allah" as you do of the man-made concept of "time." >>Time is a law, like gravity, it can't be measured (seconds is not a measurement of time) it can't be touched, it can't be seen. It is abstract, all we know is that we go through it. Just like we know there is a force that pulls things towards the earth but we don't know what is that force, we call it gravity but we can't measure it.<< Gravity can be and is measured. There's an interesting debate in quantum physics right now about the "speed" of gravity (how long it takes the energy relationship of a gravitational force to "travel" from the attracting mass to the attracted mass... and it's several orders of magnitude "faster" than the speed of light if current calculations hold.) >>Time is time, nothing can exist outside of time except for the one who created time.<< I exist out of time, don't you? I thought you said it was an abstraction? I'm around *now* but I won't be when you read this (your future, my past) and your future reply, while new to me when I read it, will be what you have written in the past at a future *now* for me. *Now* is very cyclical. It's just relative to each of us. >>We are like variables in a mathematical equation, we can't see the outside, but someone must've written us or else we wouldn't exist.<< I blame my parents for cuddling a bit too closely on a cold winter night in 1969 for my existence. And so on.
 
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Ben    RE:timeless and spaceless things   9/4/2002 1:40:33 PM
""If time is cyclic, it has no source"" "The problem with this is that it can't be proven. Therefore, I reject it." Don't be so quick- if you can't prove it, at least leave open the possibilty of alternate possibilities. What happens if curved time IS proved? "Time is a law, like gravity," No, it's more like a direction, like "up". According to Einstein and company, we live in 4-dimensional "space-time". "it can't be measured (seconds is not a measurement of time)" It can be measured in terms of repeating events. You can speak of a length of time as "X many vibrations of a Cesium aton", that is how an atomic clock works. "it can't be touched, it can't be seen." This is true enough, but makes it no less real. The reality is, you can't touch anything. You can only experience the interaction of magnetic fields. "It is abstract, all we know is that we go through it. " Maybe we go through it. Minkocsky says no, that's just an illusion, and some other scientists agree. "Just like we know there is a force that pulls things towards the earth but we don't know what is that force, we call it gravity but we can't measure it." We can absolutely measure gravity, with great precision. "Time is time," Ah. A Caribbean saying, from Trinidad? "Nothing can exist outside of time except for the one who created time." This hasn't been proved. Why should just one and only one supernatural being be an exception? Once you've agreed that your rule has exceptions, the number of excpetions is arbitrary. " We are like variables in a mathematical equation, we can't see the outside, but someone must've written us or else we wouldn't exist." Maybe, or maybe we just exist because we exist, hard as it may sound. I can recommend numerous books on the subject.
 
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muslim to AK    RE:timeless and spaceless things   9/4/2002 4:50:50 PM
"If only you felt so skeptical about the man-made concept of "Allah" as you do of the man-made concept of "time." We haven't started with God, so stop going ahead. What you just said confirms that you reject a cynical time, so you believe time has beginning and an end, am I correct? "Gravity can be and is measured. There's an interesting debate in quantum physics right now about the "speed" of gravity (how long it takes the energy relationship of a gravitational force to "travel" from the attracting mass to the attracted mass... and it's several orders of magnitude "faster" than the speed of light if current calculations hold.)" Let me rephrase, it can only be measured in relative terms. Speed, distance, and all that, it's all relative, I'm sure you know that. Therefore, any measurements using any of those are relative. "I exist out of time, don't you? I thought you said it was an abstraction? I'm around *now* but I won't be when you read this (your future, my past) and your future reply, while new to me when I read it, will be what you have written in the past at a future *now* for me. *Now* is very cyclical. It's just relative to each of us." When I read your message, I'm not looking into your past, I see something you wrote, quite sometime ago, and it progressed through time like you and I do. Anyways, this still doesn't "prove" time is cyclical in any way. Let me put it in prespective since we seem to have lost that, My point is to prove that everything is limited, and everything has a beginning and an end. SO far, the only problem with that is time, so once I prove time is linear, it has a beginning and an end, then we can move to the next point.
 
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Muslim to ben    RE:timeless and spaceless things   9/4/2002 5:02:02 PM
"Don't be so quick- if you can't prove it, at least leave open the possibilty of alternate possibilities. What happens if curved time IS proved?" I'm not the one trying to prove, you are. and so far, you haven't gotten even close. You see, you statement is redirected back to you. "No, it's more like a direction, like "up". According to Einstein and company, we live in 4-dimensional "space-time"." I have much respect for einstien and his theories, but most of them are just that. I realize that it is proven that time is relative, but how can this theory be proved? I'm sorry if I am skeptical, but I like to see proof for everything. "It can be measured in terms of repeating events. You can speak of a length of time as "X many vibrations of a Cesium aton", that is how an atomic clock works." That's my point, measuring time is a relative issue. "The reality is, you can't touch anything. You can only experience the interaction of magnetic fields" Again with the thories.... I see what I see, and I feel what I feel. If you want to tell me that it's all magnetic feels or all in my head, again I will ask you to prove that. ""It is abstract, all we know is that we go through it. " Maybe we go through it. Minkocsky says no, that's just an illusion, and some other scientists agree." There are no maybes, it's either there or its not. It's either real, or it doesn't exist. "We can absolutely measure gravity, with great precision." in relative terms. ""Time is time," Ah. A Caribbean saying, from Trinidad? "Nothing can exist outside of time except for the one who created time." This hasn't been proved. Why should just one and only one supernatural being be an exception? Once you've agreed that your rule has exceptions, the number of excpetions is arbitrary." My rule is simple, can anything exist outside of time? if so, can we prove it exists? I say, yes and yes, the only existence outside of time belongs to the creator until proven otherwise. Can the creator be proven to exist, again, the equation analogy. We believe we exist, yet for some reason some of use don't believe we were created. When I know for a fact that if I showed you a very complex equation written on carefully chopped, smoothed out wooden log, and told you that I saw it happen in front of my eyes, no body did this, it just appeared out of nowhere; if I told you that, would you believe me?
 
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Muslim to ben    RE:timeless and spaceless things (cont.)   9/4/2002 5:10:01 PM
"Maybe, or maybe we just exist because we exist, hard as it may sound. I can recommend numerous books on the subject" Again, there are no maybe's. If you want to say we simply exist becuase we do, that is a circular argument that has no solid support. If you want to say it was all a coincedence, I bet you wouldn't believe my previous example was a coincedence. If you want to say that we just go round and round, big bang after big bang, well again, that can't be proven, we can't prove there was a previous big bang or a future one; heck, we can't even prove that there was one for us, we can speculate, but that is not enough. As for God, it makes perfect sense, it is logicaly sound, and has no loop holes. We have an equation, and complex system with rules regulations, much like an architectural building. somebody must've organized those rules, those laws, those numbers, those materials, why? becuase they are organized. We don't believe a farm can just grow in rows seperated evenly, free of any weeds, and all similar trees will grow next to each other, NO. We know when we see a farm, that there is a farmer behind it. We know when we see a plane, someone built it, when we bottled water, someone bottled it. If we know all that, how come when you see the universe, when you see creation, you don't know if there is a creator?
 
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Muslim    RE:the West Vs. Islam - AK's sun and moon (corrected)   9/5/2002 4:03:57 AM
Before anything, I would like to appologize for the delay in my response to this post, somehow I missed it. Anyways, here it goes. 1)"The "universe" is the sum totality of EVERYTHING that exists. The 1st Law of Thermodynamics deals with the conservation of energy within a "closed system." There is only one closed system known to man - the entire universe. Nothing is ever created or destroyed, only changed." I understand how that applies to everything IN this universe. The problem is that this Law doesn't accout for anything outside of the universe, and doesn't prove that nothing exists outside the universe. It doesn't prove that there is no God either. Again, back to my equation anology. If you write an equation, are you a variable in that equation? NO, you wrote it, you are not limited by what ever happens within the equation. The same applies to Go, He created this equation (universe), he made all sides of the equation equal (the first law of Thermodynamics), but he is not at all limited by those laws and the border of the universe. Why? because the creator is NEVER limited by his/her creation. Whether things are created within the universe or changed doesn't at all mean the universe itself wasn't created. 2)"So, when one searches for the cause of a change in the properties of the universe, "God" has to show up on the itemized list of the things that add up to the total universe in the accounting of all things that exist, *if* "God" exists and is a factor in the equation that describes the "source" of the change. I'll come back to this too. " That is not the point of number 2. Number 2 merely states that every change is caused by something. Every cause has an effect, and every effect has a cause. We as humans are an effect of a relation between our parents (the cause). The tree is the effect of it's seed interacting with other elements and nutrients. And everything is either a cause or an effect. If the universe is the Cause, what's it's effect? it can't be the universe, nothing can cause itself. I can't be the cause of me, just as a tree can't be a cause of itself. If the universe is an effect? what is it's cause? 4)"Nothing is created or destroyed, merely changed. The universe has changed. Despite all changes, it is still the universe." What you are basically saying is that the universe is eternal, has no beginning nor end. Prove it. You and I both know it can't be proven. Unless maybe you are this super human who saw the whole thing happen. 3)"If the universe can be represented as a red ball, then what makes it a red ball? The red, or the ball? You're still trying to ignore my caveats. "Law" as a scientific term is a DESCRIPTION of observed relationships. A better analogy would be "accounting" - when ALL things are accounted for, you have the best view of EVERYTHING" Let me explain what I mean by law, it maybe the same definition you have. Law is the relationship matter has with other matter. Laws are also caused by matter, how can a law exist without matter for it to be implemented on? Matter is kept together through laws, how can an element be an element if there was no law to keep it from, for a lack of better terms, disolving into nothing? Now, if you agree to number four, which you don't, you will see that since everything has a beginning and an end, law and matter must also have a beginning and an end. But since one can't exist without the other, how can either one be the beginning? they both can't be it because they also need a source, if they are both the beginning, nothing is left to be the source. So basically, if you agree to the first three, you would see that the only way for matter and law to even exist, a third entity must've initiated the beginning. That entity must be compeletly independent, because otherwise, we would end up with the same dilema. That entity must be free from any limitation, because any limitation will make it go through all those same arguments. That entity must be a single God, why? Because multiple Gods places limitation on all of them in terms of they could create. And multiple Gods must be contained, you can't have more than one house in the same exact location, and since god is free of the limits of time and space, multiple Gods can't co-exist, it just doesn't make any sense. SO now, the real argument is constrained to the first three statements I made, the last is the result of all three, if we agree to all three, we will agree to the last. By the way, your analogy about the universe, God, and economics is false. Because God is not a part of the universe, therefore, he wouldn't be a part of the equations in your economics analogy.
 
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Ump    RE:the West Vs. Islam - AK's sun and moon ~~Super Humans   9/5/2002 7:41:52 AM
>>...the universe is eternal,...Prove it... You and I both know it can't be proven. Unless maybe you are this super human who saw the whole thing happen~~Muslim....<< Now hear this ~~ Now here this! This is your Captain Speaking~~~ "I've been alive forever and I wrote the very first song, I put the words and the melody together, I am ( ) and I write the songs"~~~~as told to YeoMan 2nd class ManIlow, by AirMan 3rd Class MohaMad during shore leave in Jeruslem. What a hangover ~~ the stuff that dreams are made of -- more likely, nighmares!! Ump~~come tip-toe through the tulips with thee~~~~~~`
 
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AK to Muslim    RE:the West Vs. Islam - AK's sun and moon (corrected)   9/5/2002 7:47:40 AM
Instead of repeating myself again, I think you need to address my caveats. >>By the way, your analogy about the universe, God, and economics is false. Because God is not a part of the universe, therefore, he wouldn't be a part of the equations in your economics analogy.<< Exactly. There's a word for things that aren't part of the universe - "non-existent." There is no "outside" the universe. If God isn't in the universe, it isn't anywhere, and can't interact with reality at all. The universe, collectively, contains EVERYTHING that exists. If God exists, where is it? If God is not a thing, it's nothing.
 
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Ben    Multiple Universes   9/5/2002 8:01:55 AM
"There is no "outside" the universe." I am not so sure, AK. Some scientists believe that there Universes beyond ours. Some speculate on an infinite number. Given an infinite number of universes, anything can happen! We may well be in the position of a lottery winner, with the "god planned it that way" advocates saying, in effect, since it is so very unlikely that I won the lottery, clearly I did not, and god gave me the money. When you have multiple universes, anything unlikely becomes a virtual certainty.
 
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