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Subject: the West Vs. Islam
Muslim    8/25/2002 11:40:30 AM
A topic came up in the Israel board that I thought was more suited to be on this board, so I'm moving the discussion about over here. To Homplate Umpire: There is something about Islam that you should probably know, even in it's most perfect form, Islam CANNOT coexist in a western based world; meaning, Islam and the West do not and cannot mix, they can exist seperately, but one can't properly exist within the other. The reson for this is because Islam is a comprehensive idealogy, it is a complete way of life, it has answer for every question, from God to politics, from the privacy of one's home to public laws and regulations. What America wants is for muslims to forget about the political portion, to forget about the public laws, and to forget that Islam is a muslim's way of life. When America wants muslims to "moderate" Islam, it means that america want muslims to "loosen up" and forget some rules and aspects of Islam. Now as much Islam treats everyone equally (which it does), it does not leave any room for any alternatives in the political, economic, or any other field of life, a muslim must lead his life according to Islam and only Islam. I agree that many muslims in the world today aren't providing a good image of Islam, and all muslim leaders are providing an even worse image. I don't agree that America doesn't want to eradicate Islam and Muslims, the only problem is that it can't. The west sees Islam as a threat to their way of life, and they try to portray Islam as this barbaric, backwards, heartless, and Nazi-like religion, but none of that is true. Islam is a threat to the west, but not because of those reasons, Islam is a threat to the west because if the western population say a real sincere and accurate implimentaion of Islam, people will flock to it. This has been seen clearly in history of Islam, for 13 years in Mecca, the prophet only managed to gather around 100 muslims, after only ten years in medinah, the prophet - with his Islamic state - managed to gather an army (not counting the muslims who weren't in that army) of 10,000 muslims. The difference between the first 13 years and the last 10 was that in the last ten years, Islam was being fully implemented, it was no longer just a bunch of words, it was now a reality. And today is no exception, if a true and accurate implementaion of Islam was to exist today, I gurantee you will see the same results, people flocking in masses to either live under the authority of Islam, or become muslims. That is the real reason Islam is a threat to the west, it will take away their power, their glory. Islam was made to be a more than just a religion one practices on Fridays, or one month a year in Ramadan, Islam was made to be a way of life, in essence, Islam is the perfect design to how a civiliation should be, and the best part of it, anyone can join. It is this aspect of Islam that makes the west attack it and not other religions such as christianity, judaism, buddism, or any other religion. I am not asking you to become sypathetic, I am asking you to uderstand the nature of Islam, that it isn't as bad the west and the muslims make it seem. Islam is a blessing to mankind. Islam also has a rock solid foundation, one that is not built on any can of faith, it is built on Iman (best translation: Conclusive acknowledgement). I want it to be clear that I'm not talking about something great that you have to just believe in, I'm talking about something great that can be proven to be great and true. That is why the west (political not social) will always be at war with Islam, the west fears Islam, they know what it can become and will do anything in their power to stop it from happening. I can prove this to you, but I will need some time, until then I leave you all to think about all this and leave this topic open for discussions.
 
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AK to Ben    RE:Donut Holes- Muslim   9/3/2002 11:35:36 AM
I recognized the term (Ever read "The Tao of Pooh" or "The Te of Piglet?") but I thought you were talking about Pu - plutonium, LOL! Zen bends the spoon with the weight of its nothingness. ;-) Or a haiku... Birdsh*t stains window the cop car takes me to jail for peeing in street
 
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Ben    RE:Things with no beginning   9/3/2002 11:36:36 AM
"It's not just "my point of view," it's scientific fact. "creation" and "destruction" are aesthetic terms" As a matter of fact, it is current scientific understanding that matter/energy can neither be created nor destroyed, thereby disproving Muslim's thesis.
 
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Muslim to ben    RE:Things with no beginning   9/3/2002 11:44:17 AM
"I deny the validity of your assertion, in that it does not account for the possibilities of existence outside of time, infinite time, or cyclic time. If you wish to use this statement as part of your proof, Prove it. " If you need me to prove the obvious, then there is no point in talking to you. If the universe exists outside of time, than everything in it would as well, and by that, we should exist outside of time. But the fact is that we don't, we have to wait for things to happen we can just skip forward a few years and take a glimpse at our future. My point is simple, what applies to one thing, applies to all things, if you want to argue with me about this, show me the exception. I'm here to deal with what is real, what we as humans see and feel. The universe is to God as foot prints are to a man, if you see foot prints, you know a creature walked there (or maybe someone drew it) but the point is that someone made that print. The same thing applies to the universe, we see all these complex laws and complex matter, yet some people stil believe that all this is just a coincidence. AK, you still haven't answered my questions about the four points. Please take your time and answer them.
 
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Ben    RE:Donut Holes- AK   9/3/2002 11:46:12 AM
Well, it's no surprise you recognized "pu". I really don't expect Muslim to, not because of any fault of his own, but because he comes from a culture where any real exposure to a "competing" thought-form is highly discouraged. Anyone reading the Tao Te Ching would certainly find the idea that another "holy" book is "miraculously beautiful" to be absurd a priori. If Lao Tze can out write any of the authors who claim to be "divinely inspired" it doesn't say much for Holy Authorship, does it?
 
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Ben    RE:Things with no beginning- Muslim fails.   9/3/2002 11:54:06 AM
"If you need me to prove the obvious, then there is no point in talking to you." So you can't do it, then? I thought not. "If the universe exists outside of time, than everything in it would as well, and by that, we should exist outside of time" Don't be silly. The paint on my house exists outside the living room, that does not mean all things in the living room exist outside the house! there is no logical connector to your thoughts! "My point is simple, what applies to one thing, applies to all things, if you want to argue with me about this, show me the exception." An electric charge. A gluon. A Graviton. A supernatural entity. Shall I go on?
 
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AK toi Ben    RE:Things with no beginning   9/3/2002 11:59:36 AM
"It's not just "my point of view," it's scientific fact. "creation" and "destruction" are aesthetic terms" >>As a matter of fact, it is current scientific understanding that matter/energy can neither be created nor destroyed, thereby disproving Muslim's thesis.<< Exactly. If "God" is part of the equation, its part should be calculable. Everything is accounted for - heat, work, entropy - the universe, minus its constituent parts and the relationships between those parts, is equal to zero. If "God's" in the universe (i.e. if "God" exists) then where is it? Two possibilities - 1. God *IS* the Universe (pantheism why worship something that's incomplete without you?) 2. Ancient desert barbarians noticed the discernable patterns of the sun and moon crossing the sky across a background of stars and imagined that their predictable motions implied a supernatural author of their "destiny" - and have been operating from this faulty teleological premise ever since.
 
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Muslim    RE:Things with no beginning   9/3/2002 12:00:07 PM
You must have some problems in reading. I already said that things are changed not created. But my point is that since everything has a source, since everything is limited in every aspect (including time) everything must have a beginning and an end. Whether we are all come from an element that existed a million or two years ago or we are created by God is not the discussion right now. The discussion is that that atom must've been created, why? Because it is limited in every aspect, it is limited in time (proof? it can't travel through time, otherwise there would be chaos in the universe) Let me make it all simple since we deviated so much. 1)Everything that is changed is changed because of outside influence. An atom can't change itself into a neutron, or a tree unless an outside force combines with it with other atoms to form the cells and tissues of the tree. 2)Everything has a source. Whether that source is another atom, it has a source. light cannot exist without a source, heat cannot exist without a source, I don't see any exceptions, if you see one, bring it up. 3)Law and matter. you guys don't disagree with me on this. (at least we agree on one thing). the question now is, if law can't exist without matter, and matter can't exist without law, then how could they create (or change) each other? was there a time when no law or matter existed? they are as limited as all of us, and they too have a beginning and an end, what was their beginning? what is their end? 4)Everything has a beginning and an end. (unless you can prove otherwise). So what is the beginning of the universe, and what is the end. Now ben, your discussion about time is useless because it has no scientific explaination, it can't be observed, therefore it can't be proven.
 
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Muslim to aK    RE:Things with no beginning   9/3/2002 12:03:56 PM
If you write a mathematical equation, are you a part of it? The point is just the fact that the equation exists means someone wrote it. can you argue with that?
 
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Muslim    RE:Things with no beginning- Muslim fails.   9/3/2002 12:07:19 PM
you falsely implemented my analogy. If the universe which includes everything in it exists outside of time, everything in it should as well. If a house exists outside of the US, everything in that house must exists outside the US as well (unless we're talking about a Us embassy, in which case the house itself is on US soil.)
 
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Ben    timeless and spaceless things   9/3/2002 1:00:01 PM
Muslim- you wrongly assume that the time and the universe itself are "things" and therefore act like the things you know in everyday existence. If time is cyclic, it has no source. It is like saying that "East" has a beginning. Where does East begin?
 
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