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Subject: the West Vs. Islam
Muslim    8/25/2002 11:40:30 AM
A topic came up in the Israel board that I thought was more suited to be on this board, so I'm moving the discussion about over here. To Homplate Umpire: There is something about Islam that you should probably know, even in it's most perfect form, Islam CANNOT coexist in a western based world; meaning, Islam and the West do not and cannot mix, they can exist seperately, but one can't properly exist within the other. The reson for this is because Islam is a comprehensive idealogy, it is a complete way of life, it has answer for every question, from God to politics, from the privacy of one's home to public laws and regulations. What America wants is for muslims to forget about the political portion, to forget about the public laws, and to forget that Islam is a muslim's way of life. When America wants muslims to "moderate" Islam, it means that america want muslims to "loosen up" and forget some rules and aspects of Islam. Now as much Islam treats everyone equally (which it does), it does not leave any room for any alternatives in the political, economic, or any other field of life, a muslim must lead his life according to Islam and only Islam. I agree that many muslims in the world today aren't providing a good image of Islam, and all muslim leaders are providing an even worse image. I don't agree that America doesn't want to eradicate Islam and Muslims, the only problem is that it can't. The west sees Islam as a threat to their way of life, and they try to portray Islam as this barbaric, backwards, heartless, and Nazi-like religion, but none of that is true. Islam is a threat to the west, but not because of those reasons, Islam is a threat to the west because if the western population say a real sincere and accurate implimentaion of Islam, people will flock to it. This has been seen clearly in history of Islam, for 13 years in Mecca, the prophet only managed to gather around 100 muslims, after only ten years in medinah, the prophet - with his Islamic state - managed to gather an army (not counting the muslims who weren't in that army) of 10,000 muslims. The difference between the first 13 years and the last 10 was that in the last ten years, Islam was being fully implemented, it was no longer just a bunch of words, it was now a reality. And today is no exception, if a true and accurate implementaion of Islam was to exist today, I gurantee you will see the same results, people flocking in masses to either live under the authority of Islam, or become muslims. That is the real reason Islam is a threat to the west, it will take away their power, their glory. Islam was made to be a more than just a religion one practices on Fridays, or one month a year in Ramadan, Islam was made to be a way of life, in essence, Islam is the perfect design to how a civiliation should be, and the best part of it, anyone can join. It is this aspect of Islam that makes the west attack it and not other religions such as christianity, judaism, buddism, or any other religion. I am not asking you to become sypathetic, I am asking you to uderstand the nature of Islam, that it isn't as bad the west and the muslims make it seem. Islam is a blessing to mankind. Islam also has a rock solid foundation, one that is not built on any can of faith, it is built on Iman (best translation: Conclusive acknowledgement). I want it to be clear that I'm not talking about something great that you have to just believe in, I'm talking about something great that can be proven to be great and true. That is why the west (political not social) will always be at war with Islam, the west fears Islam, they know what it can become and will do anything in their power to stop it from happening. I can prove this to you, but I will need some time, until then I leave you all to think about all this and leave this topic open for discussions.
 
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Ben    Things with no beginning   9/3/2002 9:53:09 AM
1) Muslim, everything DOES NOT need a "beginning and ending". You may wish all things to have such qualities, but it is not necessarily true. At the very least, you admit to one thing having no beginning or ending, why are you unable to conceive of others? 2) Lack of understanding is not proof. If you cannot understand how things heavier than air can fly, you have not disproved the existence of airplanes. This is called "Argument from Incredulity" and sums up as follows: "I personally cannot understand X, so therefore X cannot exist." If you cannot understand the existence of a thing outside time, time as boundless, or time as cyclic, you have proved that you do not understand it, nothing else. 3) Some things other than God that must have existed prior to God if they are real: Good and Evil. There are only 2 possibilities, here, logically, if you believe that Good and Evil are godly things: Possibility One. God Created Good And Evil, with no prior ethical basis. Therefore, Good and Evil are merely arbitrary classifications selected by God. Possibility Two: God created Good and Evil from prior ethical basis, therefore a prior "natural" ethical order existed before God. Who then created it, if all things need a beginning? You see, such statements "all things need a beginning" leads to paradox.
 
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Ben    RE:Breaking up is hard to do... Muslim.   9/3/2002 10:05:29 AM
"What more do you need from me to show you how they are manipulated by the west?" If you wish to prove that all Arab internal warfare is Western-caused, you must prove that no internal warfare existed prior to contact with the west. You have not done so. I can give you examples of Muslim vs Muslim fighting prior to the time when Britain even existed. How many times was Mecca raided in the 10th century, by Arabs?
 
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Ben    Donut Holes   9/3/2002 10:11:50 AM
"Being that gravity is a function of planetary mass, your question makes no sense. Does the hole exist without the doughnut?" Yes. Absolutely. In the unformed, all potentials exist. We call this concept "pu".
 
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American Kafir to Muslim    RE:the West Vs. Islam - AK's sun and moon (corrected)   9/3/2002 10:38:42 AM
>>1)WE said nothing can change into something greater than itself without outside influence. So what did the universe change from? and what outside influence changed it? (since you say nothing is created, well then I'll replace created with changed)<< The "universe" is the sum totality of EVERYTHING that exists. The 1st Law of Thermodynamics deals with the conservation of energy within a "closed system." There is only one closed system known to man - the entire universe. Nothing is ever created or destroyed, only changed. So, before the "universe" was a bunch of interacting quantum relationships arranged into neat looking stars and planets and crazy Palestinian meat-bombers, the universe was a bunch of quantum relationships arranged in some other way. At no time in eternity has the universe not been the universe. I'll give you a primer on thermodynamics and quantum phyics easy enough for a 7 year old to grasp at the end. (If only they'd do this in schools, we'd save a few trees by not building churches and mosques!) >>2)Everything has a source. Like we said in number one, that source can't be smaller than the result unless their is an outside influence that changed it to become "better". So what is the source of this universe? what is the the source of the big Bang? Before the big bang, the universe was simply a ball of gas, now it is full of systems, galaxies, life. What source changed the universe to become what it is today.<< If you're following my answer from #1 above, the universe has ALWAYS been the universe. It's not created, not destroyed, just changed. The universe being the only closed system, there is such thing as "outside the universe." So all changes OF the universe are due to changes WITHIN the universe. In layman's terms, the universe, minus everything that makes the universe what it is, will ALWAYS BE ZERO. So, when one searches for the cause of a change in the properties of the universe, "God" has to show up on the itemized list of the things that add up to the total universe in the accounting of all things that exist, *if* "God" exists and is a factor in the equation that describes the "source" of the change. I'll come back to this too. >>First I will relate number 4, then come back to number three. 4)Everything has a beginning and end, what is the beginning of the universe? and who/what initiated that beginning? Remember, a ball doesn't move unless someone/something pushes it.<< Nothing is created or destroyed, merely changed. The universe has changed. Despite all changes, it is still the universe. >>3)Law and matter. IF everything in this universe is either law or matter, and one couldn't exists without the other, then what created the universe? Law or matter?<< If the universe can be represented as a red ball, then what makes it a red ball? The red, or the ball? You're still trying to ignore my caveats. "Law" as a scientific term is a DESCRIPTION of observed relationships. A better analogy would be "accounting" - when ALL things are accounted for, you have the best view of EVERYTHING. (i.e. you can describe what's going on accurately, with a "law") Trying to fudge "God" into the accounting of the factors involved in making the universe the universe is much like cooking the books at Enron and hoping nobody notices you're ripping them off. The reason there's an a old saying "the devil's in the details" is because it's easier to say "God did it" and remain ignorant rather than actually search for the truth. >>I think that is enough questions for the day. Please keep in mind that I didn't even bring up God yet, right now, I'm just disscussing all possibilities of the origin of the universe.<< Let me tidy this up with a little quantum physics for dummies... Let's say the closed system of quantum interactions that make up universe is limited to accountable transactions in an economy. Instead of saying "the total universe minus its sources of interaction and changes that make it up will always be zero" let's say "the price of an item minus what it costs = zero." Now, let's say you walk into the local quantum pub, where quantum dollars are being changed into half-dollar quantum beers (It's 50 cent draft night) You understand that the quantum economy (the universe) is defined by the exchanges of money (energy) within it. The smallest unit of distinction (quantum particle) in the economy (universe) is a penny coin. Looking up the scale of our discursive model of the universe through economics (physics) we find some identifiable constants - 5 pennies make up a nickel, 2 nickels (10 pennies) make up a dime, 2 dimes and a nickel (25 pennies) make up a quarter, 2 quarters (50 pennies) make up a half-dollar, 2 half dollars (100 pennies) make up a dollar, and so on. You're pretty frugal with your quantum beer money, so you want to account for every quantum penny that you exchange with the quantum bartender when you change your descriptive properties from yo
 
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muslim to ben    RE:Things with no beginning   9/3/2002 10:48:50 AM
1)"everything DOES NOT need a "beginning and ending". You may wish all things to have such qualities, but it is not necessarily true" This is not a wish of mine, it is a physical property of things. Everthing does have a beginning and everything does have an end, whether we are talking about objects, people, animals, plants, planets, or solar systems. Everything that has a start has a finish. (in AKs point of view, they are changed.) 2)"Lack of understanding is not proof." Please clarify, I don't see how this is related to our discussion. 3)As for the discussion of Good and evil, I will answer that when we get to the discussion of God. We haven't even reached that point in the discussion yet. So please, don't get ahead, you guys asked me to prove God exists, I will do it, but under the condition that you guys don't jump ahead. All questions will be answered, have patience.
 
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Muslim to ben    RE:Breaking up is hard to do... Muslim.   9/3/2002 10:53:05 AM
"If you wish to prove that all Arab internal warfare is Western-caused" I didn't say this at all. I said a thousand times that the reasons for conflict already existed between muslims, and they have had conflicts without outside (or western) influence, I don't reject that. All I was saying was that the west always tried to influence those conflicts or reasons of conflict. I brought the example of Moa'ueah and Ali, the romans tried to help Moa'ueah against Ali. The best example is how the british influenced the arabs to rebel against the turks (again, the reasons were already there, it might've taken more time, but eventualy that conflict would've occured). All my examples were showing how the west took advantage of a conflict already in existence, THAT'S ALL I WAS TRYING TO SAY.
 
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Muslim to ben    RE:Donut Holes   9/3/2002 10:57:25 AM
"Yes. Absolutely. In the unformed, all potentials exist. We call this concept "pu"." Sometimes, I doubt if you even know what you talk about.....
 
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American Kafir to Muslim    RE:Things with no beginning   9/3/2002 11:04:38 AM
>>1)"everything DOES NOT need a "beginning and ending". You may wish all things to have such qualities, but it is not necessarily true" This is not a wish of mine, it is a physical property of things. Everthing does have a beginning and everything does have an end, whether we are talking about objects, people, animals, plants, planets, or solar systems. Everything that has a start has a finish. (in AKs point of view, they are changed.)<< It's not just "my point of view," it's scientific fact. "creation" and "destruction" are aesthetic terms. You might "destroy" the tree to "create" a table, but all you've done is change the appearance of the wood (table, scrap, and sawdust) that is very much still there. Reduce it to elementary and quantum particles, and you've merely disintegrated it into its smallest possible pieces, and these pieces can be accounted for as the total quantum relationships necessary to assemble an exact duplicate of the tree you started with. And you'll NEVER find "God" there.
 
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Ben    RE:Donut Holes- Muslim   9/3/2002 11:26:24 AM
I do not expect you to understand Pu, Muslim, as you know nothing of Tao, but once again you fall into a trap of believing "Whatever I do not understand cannot exist". If you understood the Tao, and understood Pu, you would know exactly how a donut hole exists without the donut. Most likely, though, you would no longer be Muslim. Ah, well, que sera sera!
 
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Ben    RE:Things with no beginning   9/3/2002 11:33:46 AM
"This is not a wish of mine, it is a physical property of things." I deny the validity of your assertion, in that it does not account for the possibilities of existence outside of time, infinite time, or cyclic time. If you wish to use this statement as part of your proof, Prove it.
 
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