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Subject: the West Vs. Islam
Muslim    8/25/2002 11:40:30 AM
A topic came up in the Israel board that I thought was more suited to be on this board, so I'm moving the discussion about over here. To Homplate Umpire: There is something about Islam that you should probably know, even in it's most perfect form, Islam CANNOT coexist in a western based world; meaning, Islam and the West do not and cannot mix, they can exist seperately, but one can't properly exist within the other. The reson for this is because Islam is a comprehensive idealogy, it is a complete way of life, it has answer for every question, from God to politics, from the privacy of one's home to public laws and regulations. What America wants is for muslims to forget about the political portion, to forget about the public laws, and to forget that Islam is a muslim's way of life. When America wants muslims to "moderate" Islam, it means that america want muslims to "loosen up" and forget some rules and aspects of Islam. Now as much Islam treats everyone equally (which it does), it does not leave any room for any alternatives in the political, economic, or any other field of life, a muslim must lead his life according to Islam and only Islam. I agree that many muslims in the world today aren't providing a good image of Islam, and all muslim leaders are providing an even worse image. I don't agree that America doesn't want to eradicate Islam and Muslims, the only problem is that it can't. The west sees Islam as a threat to their way of life, and they try to portray Islam as this barbaric, backwards, heartless, and Nazi-like religion, but none of that is true. Islam is a threat to the west, but not because of those reasons, Islam is a threat to the west because if the western population say a real sincere and accurate implimentaion of Islam, people will flock to it. This has been seen clearly in history of Islam, for 13 years in Mecca, the prophet only managed to gather around 100 muslims, after only ten years in medinah, the prophet - with his Islamic state - managed to gather an army (not counting the muslims who weren't in that army) of 10,000 muslims. The difference between the first 13 years and the last 10 was that in the last ten years, Islam was being fully implemented, it was no longer just a bunch of words, it was now a reality. And today is no exception, if a true and accurate implementaion of Islam was to exist today, I gurantee you will see the same results, people flocking in masses to either live under the authority of Islam, or become muslims. That is the real reason Islam is a threat to the west, it will take away their power, their glory. Islam was made to be a more than just a religion one practices on Fridays, or one month a year in Ramadan, Islam was made to be a way of life, in essence, Islam is the perfect design to how a civiliation should be, and the best part of it, anyone can join. It is this aspect of Islam that makes the west attack it and not other religions such as christianity, judaism, buddism, or any other religion. I am not asking you to become sypathetic, I am asking you to uderstand the nature of Islam, that it isn't as bad the west and the muslims make it seem. Islam is a blessing to mankind. Islam also has a rock solid foundation, one that is not built on any can of faith, it is built on Iman (best translation: Conclusive acknowledgement). I want it to be clear that I'm not talking about something great that you have to just believe in, I'm talking about something great that can be proven to be great and true. That is why the west (political not social) will always be at war with Islam, the west fears Islam, they know what it can become and will do anything in their power to stop it from happening. I can prove this to you, but I will need some time, until then I leave you all to think about all this and leave this topic open for discussions.
 
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Muslim    RE:Religions borrow   8/29/2002 6:39:00 PM
Islam did not borrow. Just because everyone else does one thing, this doesn't mean EVERYONE does it. Again, it may have similarities with other religions/systems, but that does not at all mean that they borowed. Until you can show exactly what they borowed, how they borowed, who they borowed from, and when they borowed, you statement would have no support. Again, similarities DO NOT equal one borowing from the other. It is quite possible that one God sent similar messages to different peoples in different times, very possible, in fact, that is the only logical explanation I can accept. This does not just apply to Islam, applies to all religions and systems. Just because two systems may have similar comands/laws/rules it doesn't mean the newer borowed from the older. To sum it all up, any argument saying that two systems borowed from one another needs more support than simply one is older, or they existed in the same region at the same time. This is not to say that borowing does not happen, it just needs adequate support in order for one to make that statement.
 
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Muslim    RE:the West Vs. real Islam, and Rule two.   8/29/2002 7:28:47 PM
That's your rule, Now let me give you another rule that you should understand. Just because someone says they follow a religion/system or whatever, it doesn't mean they actually follow what they say they do. That is fact that I'm sure you can't disagree with. So based on that, just because Saudi Arabia says they implement the REAL Islam, it doesn't neccesarily mean that they do. If you want to say that they do, then you will have to hold both systems side by side, and compare every single aspect of both systems. And I can 100% gurantee that they don't not match (except maybe for 5% or so). That means that what Saudi Arabia or Iran claims is false, because the systems to match the blue-print of Islam. Now as for the truth, I'll say this loud and clear: I DO NOT EXPECT ANY OF YOU TO BELIEVE THAT ISLAM IS THE TRUTH. In order for me to show you that, I would have to start explain things from the beginning. I would have to first of all put the Quran aside, and start talking to you from a logical point of view about why there is no way AT ALL that this universe would exist if there wasn't a God. Then I would have to explain to you (again from a logical point of view) why this God must be perfect and CANNOT be at all under the control of any aspect of this universe(including time). Then I would have to explain to you why this God must be perfect, even beyond our defenintion (again through logic). After that, we would come to why do we need messengers. Then, once I did all that, and we agree to every single previously state point beyond a shadow of a doubt, we will talk about how a messenger can prove to mankind that he does in fact carry a message from God. Once all that is done through logic, and we reach the conclusion that we do in fact need messages from God proven through miracles, once we do that, then we open the Quran (or any other "Holy" book) and we analyze a few messages to see if they do indeed have a miracle. If that miracle can be seen and proven, then we would be able to know that religion is the absolute truth because we have just proven through solid-error-free-logic that that religion is in fact the one that our Creator wants us to follow. And we can't disagree with the creator. Now, you see how the discussion about the truth in Islam should be handled, not through war, nor argument, nor debate, but through an actual analysis of the world around us. So I do not expect any single person in the world to become a muslim unless he has gone through all of those and reached the conclusion that Islam is the truth. But this does not mean that most Muslims in the world today are not muslims, because this perfect God (unlike the imperfect american system) excuses the ones who simply don't know, and besides, only God can judge us. I have explained to you all this to show you that Islam does not follow the model for all other religions, it does not force any religion on anyone, but instead, muslims should explain God and the concept of religion without the aide of the Quran (for the most part), and if after all that a person still rejects Islam, then Allah knows what to do and we should just leave him alone. People are so used to imperfect systems and applications that they have a hard time imagine a REAL perfect system with a few imperfection in terms of application. That's what Islam is, a perfect system that gives room for a few human imperfections. If you can't understand that, there is nothing more I can say to help you understand. But understand this, Islam is a reality that we just don't see today, it is like buried treasured, a few know it's there, they know it's worth digging out, most people think it's a myth, but once it's dug out into the open, everyone will want a piece.
 
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Muslim    RE:Breaking up is hard to do... Muslim.   8/29/2002 8:04:37 PM
I hope you realize that you everything you said, except for the TE Lawrence and Palestine portions are exactly the same points I was making. Thanks for the support. Anyways, now, to talk about where we disagree. ""Palestine was being kept for the jews." you'll note the arab leader at the time was in favor of this!" All the more reason to believe that the Arab leaders were in fact manipulated by the western powers. "re: TE Lawrence: He "facilitated" and he taught and guided, he did not direct and cause, unless you believe that the Arabs were really very naive and gullible." Are we talking about the same Arabs that gave palestine away? Ofcourse I believe they were gullible and naive, in fact, they were far worse. they were traitors, nationalist pigs who obviously cared for nobody and nothing but themselves. You should know by now that I am the toughest critic towards arab leaders on this site. No one hates them as much as I do. As for the rest, I agree with you as long as you agree that both sides are to blame, both the west and the muslims contributed to the decline of the muslims.
 
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American Kafir to Muslim    RE:the West Vs. Islam - AK's sun and moon   8/29/2002 8:18:16 PM
>>But reality shows that they worship the self by giving the human mind supreme authority over everything that governs humans.<< I wouldn't call it "worship of the self" to have your mind in charge of your actions, but humans that are not governed by their own minds are usually regarded as insane, or at least accident prone. Nonetheless, the alternative is "unthinkable" (excuse the pun). If you want to condemn atheists for being intellectually driven rather than mythologically driven, I don't think you'll get any complaints.
 
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American Kafir    RE:Breaking up is hard to do... Muslim.   8/29/2002 8:32:34 PM
>>Ofcourse I believe they were gullible and naive, in fact, they were far worse. they were traitors, nationalist pigs who obviously cared for nobody and nothing but themselves. You should know by now that I am the toughest critic towards arab leaders on this site. No one hates them as much as I do.<< Except, of course, Osama Bin Laden, who hates them enough to have tried to blow them all up, so that "true Islam" could emerge. Not that I feel any sense of support for the Saudi royal family, but all this "get back to the true Islam" talk sounds like an Al Qaeda recruitment brochure.
 
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Muslim    RE:Breaking up is hard to do... Muslim.   8/29/2002 8:58:52 PM
"Except, of course, Osama Bin Laden, who hates them enough to have tried to blow them all up, so that "true Islam" could emerge. Not that I feel any sense of support for the Saudi royal family, but all this "get back to the true Islam" talk sounds like an Al Qaeda recruitment brochure. " Funny, you're back, again putting words in my mouth. Let me say this one more time, just because some one claims to be ruling by a system (a true islamic system in thiscase) it doesn't mean they actually do it. What applies to Saudi Arabia also applies to Osama, Al-Qaeda, and the Taliban, if you take what they are doing and implementing, put it side-by-side next to the an untarnished doctrine of Islam, you will find that Osama does not apply Islam. There are many contradictions in what they do and how they rule.
 
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Muslim    RE:the West Vs. Islam - AK's sun and moon   8/29/2002 9:36:20 PM
"I wouldn't call it "worship of the self" to have your mind in charge of your actions, but humans that are not governed by their own minds are usually regarded as insane, or at least accident prone. Nonetheless, the alternative is "unthinkable" (excuse the pun). If you want to condemn atheists for being intellectually driven rather than mythologically driven, I don't think you'll get any complaints." You are commiting a great fallacy, what you are basically saying is that either a man lets his mind decide what is right or wrong in every situation, or he doesn't use his mind in any of his actions; you are forgetting the in-between. It is possible to have both. I don't want to go into explaining the perfect, unflawed argument for the existence of God unless you want me to. This is a claim that I can support withou any use of any "holy" book, just pure use of the mind. Anyways, my point is that one can use his mind to its fullest extent to prove the existence of a God. After that is established, one can use his mind, not to make up new rules within the religion, but to understand it, and interpret it. It is the perfect combination, use the mind to prove God exists, then use it to understand what God is telling us. Anyways, you are not even giving room that type of situation, instead you are attempting to force your logic onto everyone else. By you saying there is no God, you are basically calling countless generations of people who believed in God uneducated, thoughtless, ignorant human beings who have wasted their entire life on a fake entity; while reality shows that some of those people are actually incredibly inteligent human beings who don't commit to anything without deep consideration and thought. I'm not asking to think about your "choice of life", I'm asking to stop pretending we are all morons because we believe in God, when some of us(all those who believe in God, not limited to this board) are a lot smarter, more intelligent, and contributed a lot more to humanity and science than you ever will. You want to be an atheist, fine. But understand this, in our minds, you are not just stupid, you are blind. Your atheism is in reality a godless version of Blind-faith.
 
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Muslim to AK    RE:the West Vs. Islam - AK's sun and moon   8/30/2002 3:18:16 AM
I would like to say to AK that I am sorry for some of things I said, some it was a bit harsh and aggressive. I do feel that argument of the atheist is very silly, but calling you stupid and blind was attacking you as a person instead of your ideas. Once again, I'm sorry for attacking you, I guess I was just letting out some steam.
 
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Ben    RE:Breaking up is hard to do... Muslim.   8/30/2002 7:37:54 AM
Muslim said:""Palestine was being kept for the jews." So I said: "you'll note the arab leader at the time was in favor of this!" Muslim said: "All the more reason to believe that the Arab leaders were in fact manipulated by the western powers." Which is scary. Typical Arab thought pattern- "if you do not agree with my beliefs it is becuase you are manipulated by a foreign power." Give Faisal some credit, Muslim. He had real ideas, and some solid reasoning as to why the vast arab world could part with a tiny strip of land to provide for a Jewish state. One is, he presumed that the Jews, who had experienced the rough end of Christianity for quite some time, would be natural allies. Another is he wanted them to bring their economic connections to the middle east. Understand this was before oil was the big thing. Faisal figured that Jewish investment would be the key to Middle eastern economic development. Just because he had ideas different from you does not make him less of a Muslim, less of an Arab, or "manipulated". Such thinking, which is harmful to the free exchange of ideas, is part of why the Islamic culture has fallen down. You may call them traitors, but I challenge you to prove it. Faisal and company had a very real, very clear, and potentially very workable political vision. Bear in mind there were reasons the Arabs fought against Turkish rule that went beyond foreign manipulation and "being traitors".
 
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American Kafir    RE:the West Vs. Islam - AK's sun and moon   8/30/2002 7:45:38 AM
"I wouldn't call it "worship of the self" to have your mind in charge of your actions, but humans that are not governed by their own minds are usually regarded as insane, or at least accident prone. Nonetheless, the alternative is "unthinkable" (excuse the pun). If you want to condemn atheists for being intellectually driven rather than mythologically driven, I don't think you'll get any complaints." >>You are commiting a great fallacy, what you are basically saying is that either a man lets his mind decide what is right or wrong in every situation, or he doesn't use his mind in any of his actions; you are forgetting the in-between. It is possible to have both.<< I wasn't specifically talking about moral judgements, but rather judgements in general. All people judge things with their intellectual capabilities. >>I don't want to go into explaining the perfect, unflawed argument for the existence of God unless you want me to. This is a claim that I can support withou any use of any "holy" book, just pure use of the mind.<< As a freelance fiction writer, I can do the same. But, I'd like to see the "perfect, unflawed argument" for the existence of God (as would the entire world). I'm thoroughly familiar with most ontological, cosmological, and teleological attempts. Maybe you can bridge the gap between Aristotle and Aquinas that noticeably lacks any substance between declaring the existence of a "first cause" and arbitrarily calling that "God." Good luck. Maybe you won't spend 2,000 years with a thesaurus and a faith that semantics will extricate the argument from its usual petitio principi (circular argument) fallacy. >>Anyways, my point is that one can use his mind to its fullest extent to prove the existence of a God.<< Then it should be virtually painless for you to present your best intellectual argument for my examination. I'd like to see you pull God out of your head. >>After that is established, one can use his mind, not to make up new rules within the religion, but to understand it, and interpret it. It is the perfect combination, use the mind to prove God exists, then use it to understand what God is telling us.<< I have never denied that humans possess fertile imaginations. >>Anyways, you are not even giving room that type of situation, instead you are attempting to force your logic onto everyone else. By you saying there is no God, you are basically calling countless generations of people who believed in God uneducated, thoughtless, ignorant human beings who have wasted their entire life on a fake entity; while reality shows that some of those people are actually incredibly inteligent human beings who don't commit to anything without deep consideration and thought. I'm not asking to think about your "choice of life", I'm asking to stop pretending we are all morons because we believe in God, when some of us(all those who believe in God, not limited to this board) are a lot smarter, more intelligent, and contributed a lot more to humanity and science than you ever will.<< Then I'm sorry I haven't invented a religion yet. How's this: OBEY THE LAW OF GRAVITY OR PLUMMET TO YOUR DOOM! Catchy, isn't it? >>You want to be an atheist, fine. But understand this, in our minds, you are not just stupid, you are blind. Your atheism is in reality a godless version of Blind-faith.<< I don't mean to sound rude, but empirical statements about the nature of reality aren't exactly a theist's forte. Much less the content or caliber of anyone else's mind. I could just as well say your theism is in reality a god-ful version of self-delusion.
 
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