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Subject: Polytheists
David Blue    11/12/2002 8:38:17 AM
Hi. Partly as a holdover from my days as a no-nukes peace-marcher, I know a bunch of polytheists. They fall into three classes, none of them capable of defending themselves against Islam. (1) Wiccans, and other magic-workers. In my experience, these warlocks and witches are likely to do things like work spells and offer prayers to the great motherly nature goddess, to appeal to the great roach spirit to keep her babies away, so that the magician need not to resort to (gasp!) lethal (to roaches) poison! It stands to reason that not much can be expected in a military sense from people who can't summon up enough ruthlessness to kill a roach. (2) Northern Heathens. These I meet only on the Internet. They worship the gods their (distant) ancestors did: Thor, various Celtic gods etc.. These are a tougher lot, and many have time in the military. But Europe is their sun and their moon, which means that America is in the wrong in fighting Islam now, and the form of religious oppression that concerns them is American style multiculturalism. Islam is not on their radar screen, as it is neither American, nor capitalist/consumerist/multiculturalist. Yep, not even self-identified modern Viking want to fight, or not on America's side anyway. (3) Other "serious" neo-pagans etc., mostly interested in reconstructing and reliving pre-Christian religions like Hellenismos (the religion of Classical Greece). These generally feel that in a religious sense "something serious has gone wrong" (and they care very much about that), so they have backtracked across the history of religion to bits of history where they feel things made more sense. Quite a bright and sincere crowd in a lot of ways, they get their opinions on religion and much else from respected academic authorities. If the universities say it, it's true, and if not, not. So while the ancient religions themselves were noted for tough and ruthless people, for the modernists this is filtered through academic political correctness. (Islam can only mean "diversity", and encouraging "diversity" is always right, because we don't want to be RACIST, do we? Etc..) If academia would tell them it was all right to defend yourself, they probably might, but in reality, that won't happen. In America, all these people are free to worship Wodem, Hermes or empty beer bottles if they so choose: the constitution guarantees it. In Australia, Canada and the UK, a tolerant culture offers polytheists similar protection in practice. And why not? They're colourful, often interested in good works (like animal shelters), and they hurt nobody. If you can live with the Amish, you can live with some of these. Of course many of them are also extremely annoying, like true believers of any stripe. The witless, dogmatic teen witches can get pretty snotty. But where I live that's no crime.) Now let's discuss how they will or would all do under Sharia (Muslim holy law). They won't fight or flee, and couldn't really hope to make it another country with another language etc. if they tried. The Northern Heathens of various stripes practically can't, for "blood and soil" religious reasons. Though others may mock their religions, most of these polytheists seem very genuine about doing what they think is right: they won't convert. Given that they are who they are, and there they stay, what are their rights, under pure, strict, militant Islam? How will they stand, in a future Muslim Europe, or a future Muslim World? David Blue Riyadh delenda est!
 
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american in Italy    RE:Polytheists   11/12/2002 11:45:36 AM
David, As I enjoyed your reading, I thought to my self this is what happens when you study creative writing and mix it with drugs(Magic Mushrooms or Acid). While I found it interesting I failed to see your point or points. I'll go reread it. Ok but you say America is Fighting Islam. I think its the other way around, I mean Islam is fighting us. Now We don't wnat to be an all muslim world. I couldn't live with that. I guess I'm a No. 2. Northern Heathens. the Problem with people who think America is too strong is, We are strong and they can't deal with it. Like any inferiority complex they feel they have to stand up against it. And thats ok as long as you don't go Killing people over your insane ideas. I would love to see a world were every one is happy, every one gets what they deserve. But the world just doesn't work that way. It nevr has and it probably never will. So you may have to buy a space craft and start your search for utopia. It may be a long trip so bring many frozen dinners. Make sure the dinners are organicly processed if not you will destroy the utopia you find.
 
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American Kafir    RE:Polytheists   11/12/2002 1:00:03 PM
Pagans, polytheists, and atheists have the most to fear from Islamic rule, as their don't have the option to submit to the jizyah insurance plan.
 
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David Blue    RE:Polytheists   11/12/2002 2:28:24 PM
Hi, american in Italy. When Muslim countries do things like run "the protocols of the elders of Zion" on TV, I notice government spokesmen deny there's any prejudice, and they often say things like: "Islam stands for tolerance to monotheists." I imagine the first thing BSL thinks when he hears this stuff is: "You're lying." But the first thing I think is: "Thanks a bunch. And what if you are a polytheist?" After that, I also think: "And you're lying anyway." Since the spokesmen of Islam say they tolerate monotheism, and leave the rest a blank, let's fill that blank in, with facts not prejudice. What happens to a perfectly harmless religious minority, in strict, pure, by-the-book Islam. Let's spell this out, factually, exactly and precisely. The point of my spelling out in detail what polytheists I meant was to make it clear what the legal case to be dealt with is. Yes, there really are polytheists. No, they're not fighters. No, they're not criminals who would or should be punished on any other grounds than their religion. No, they're not going anywhere. No, they won't change their religion, they will keep raising temples to Ra and so on. Given this case, which I have specified exactly, what does strict, pure, by-the-book Islam do? I was careful not to specify polytheism in terms of native tribesmen, so as not to get distracted by an argument that, well they're fierce fighters so whatever happens to them (and in Indonesia is happening to them) is self-defence in a broad sense. (And by the way: no it's not.) I did not specify Hindus, as Hinduism is complicated (not all Hindus are polytheists), as again, one could talk about them as rivals, fighters and so on. (Which still would not make terrorism OK, but would be an opportunity to get off-topic). No. I'm talking about harmless religious minorities, with the same rights as all other citizens in Western civilization. I specify strict, pure, by-the-book Islam, because I'm not asking for an answer about "cultural factors" and how they don't represent Islam. I'm asking, how is this exactly specified case dealt with under the strictest and most exact real Islam that could be applied? On "America fighting Islam", I agree that it's actually Islam fighting America, but I expressed it the way Europeans who won't fight express it, the better to show that they won't fight. David Blue Riyadh delenda est!
 
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David Blue    RE:Polytheists   11/12/2002 2:53:49 PM
Hi, American Kafir. "Pagans, polytheists, and atheists have the most to fear from Islamic rule, as their don't have the option to submit to the jizyah insurance plan." OK, this advances us a bit, but not very far. We've gone from * There is tolerance (but only for monotheists), to * there is "the jizyah insurance plan" (but only if you're monotheist). I won't even ask about "the jizyah insurance plan" as that would get me off topic. I'm not asking about what happens when the provisions for "tolerance" apply. Others are already discussing "dhimmitude", which is what happens if you are a Jew or a Christian and therefore qualify for softer treatment. I'm asking about that very large blank that spokesmen for Islam keep carefully leaving blank, regarding harmless religious minorities who happen not to qualify for any let-offs or exemptions or preferential treatment under Islam. David Blue Riyadh delenda est!
 
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Phoenix Rising    RE:Polytheists   11/13/2002 1:13:11 PM
David, You've noted three groups of polytheists that, admittedly, probably couldn't defend themselves from a gang of intoxicated Rastafarians, much less militant Muslims. Fair enough. You neglected one, however. It numbers over a billion people worldwide, enjoys more and more sympathy from the U.S. at the grassroots level every year, stretches back thousands of years, and currently has a few dozen IRBM's pointed at Pakistan. You left out Hinduism. I wouldn't call that a defenseless polytheistic religion. Most of the ones I know here aren't particularly warlike (particularly the women, for some reason ... there's a much wider gender gap there than in Western culture, or at least, I perceive one), but I wouldn't call them "defenseless." If this thread originated from a previous one where Hinduism was discussed, then I apologize; I've been reading in reverse chronological order. --Phoenix Rising
 
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David Blue    RE:Polytheists   11/13/2002 2:25:59 PM
Hi. As I stated before, I left Hinduism out, because Hinduism is big, strong and complicated, this creating opportunities to slide away from the topic. E.g. "The real issue is Muslim self-defence against Hinduism." (And by the way, no it's not.) Or: "Hindus don't necessarily need to worry about this, because Hindus can be monotheists." (Some Hindus may be monotheistic, but that's not what I'm asking about.) Or: "Muslims and Hindus have gotten along just fine." Obviously some have, but it's also normal for Muslims to drink like fish, just as other people do, disregarding the strictures against it because it's fun. That's not what I'm asking about. What I'm asking about is the blank. In strict, pure, by-the-book Islam, the default treatment of polytheists is X. But, they say, you can get off X if you convert to Islam, or you can get dhimmi status (lucky you!) if you are a Jew or a Christian, or you can flee and X can't be applied to you, etc.. That's not what I'm interested in. I'm interested to know: what exactly is X? I've thought a little more about this, and what I'd like to know is what answers I would get if I asked this question of all the most authoritative legal/religious scholars, in Islam, and they thought I was a Muslim and "safe". It's no use me asking as a non-Muslim, because obviously the holy men will lie, giving a one, smoothing, soothing kind of answer to the enemy, and another, entirely different kind of answer to the faithful. The terrorist issue has shown how these people speak work. They don't give direct, honest answers except perhaps behind closed doors. It's a real problem to figure out how to get this basic information. I took a look at this scholarly and authoritative site: http://www.dhimmitude.org/ _The Status of Non-Muslim Minorities Under Islamic Rule_ is the title, but it doesn't live up to that. It only covers Jews and Christians. Of course I can easily find people who will claim that Islam is against polytheism, but that does me no good, because I want this issue clarified by facts supported by unimpeachable academic authority, not confused by prejudice. Maybe I will take this to the India/Pakistan board, in case someone there knows where good information is. David Blue Riyadh delenda est!
 
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muslim    RE:Polytheists   11/14/2002 4:09:36 AM
to Blue, I don't know how much my answer would mean to you because it doesn't come from an "religious authority", it comes from my own knowledge, and what I have learned (which may not be much). Now, I don't know the exact answer to your question, but I know an answer to a part of it... no **arab** is allowed to be anything but one of three... a Muslim... a Jew... or a christian... arab polytheists were fought by the prophet not because of the nature of their polytheistic ways, but because they knew the truth and refused to adhere to it. Also, and this is just my personal opinion, I believe that ALL arabs know Islam is the right path because they can read the Quran and understand it, Islam is harsher on them simply because arabs can read the quran and see it's miraculous aspects without anyone needing to explain it to them, yet for soem reason, they refuse to adhere to it. "by-the-book-Islam" doesn't allow forced conversion, the only exception are the polytheistic arabs, because they can read the Quran, and they can understand it, and no arab can sincerely say that the Quran is not miraculous. As for the non-arab polytheists, I think, again my opinion, that they would fall under the category of Dhimmis. Like jews and christians living under the authority of Islam, they must follow the same rules (doesn't include not owning weapons as some people claim). But they can't "advertise" their religion, and can't practice it in public. They are allowed to have their own religious buildings, as long as their are subtle. Again, this is just off the top of my head, I would need to do some research before I can give a solid 100% correct answer, if there is one. Also, I think you are right about many of the Islamic "holy me" (no such thing exists in Islam), many of them either speak out of ignorance and claim it to be the truth, or speak what the leader wants them to speak, most of popular MODERN DAY ones fall under one of these two. The best chance you or I would have in finding the answer would be either to ask someone you know personally and can trust him, or maybe even go and research the Quran and Sunnah on your own (with some guidance from someone who knows). I hope that answered your question... Muslim
 
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David Blue    RE:Polytheists   11/14/2002 4:18:38 PM
Hi. Thanks for the answer, Muslim. It was useful, because I hadn't considered the notion of there being two important classes of polytheists: Arab and non-Arab. For the rest, somebody's personal opinion, without any authority, does not get me anywhere. Except that I do now have a better idea of how hard this stuff would be to find out, and thanks again for that. David Blue Riyadh delenda est!
 
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Jeff from Michigan    According to strict Islam interpetation Christians are Polytheists   11/14/2002 10:42:20 PM
Hi Dave, This is my first post in a long time. I have been traveling. Reading some article in the IHT I read during the Moscow Chechen Hostage Crisis that Christians are considered polytheists because we worship the trinity. So that makes us fair game for slaughter. I later read the same thing in National Review Online which I can highly recommend. Particularly the blog section called "The Corner". On a personal note it appears that I may be going to Australia the first quarter of next year. How far are you from Melbourne?
 
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muslim    RE:Polytheists   11/15/2002 3:38:23 AM
Hi, I ask a few people I know who can answer the question sincerely and accurately, and they confirmed what I told you. Arab polytheists are not allowed to live under Islam as polytheists (BTW, there are VERY VERY VERY little if any arab polytheists). As for the non-arab polytheists, they are given the same status as christians and jews and are therefore treated the same, except for a few rules. The only two exceptions I know of are that muslim men and women aren't allowed to marry them, and muslims aren't allowed to eat the meat the polytheists slaughtered, other than that, as long as they pay the jizyah, they are protected and allowed to practice their religions. I'm glad you asked that question, because I myself wasn't very sure about this subject and it led me to do the research. This is the correct by-the-book answer, but it doesn't mean you won't hear different ones. I think that covers that subject, if you have anything else to ask, please feel free to do so, I would be more than glad to answer or find the answer.
 
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