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Subject: Does Islam Preclude Democracy?
Phoenix Rising    10/4/2002 8:12:37 AM
This is primarily to Muslim, since he seems to be the primary advocate of political Islam here. I've been wondering about this for a while now, just never got it into words. Why should Islam, if there is one particular correct interpretation of it, be inimical to democracy? I'm thinking here particularly in terms of the British parliamentary system, where almost all legislative and executive powers ultimately reside in parliament. If there is anything that all Houses of Parliament universally agree on, it won't make the London Times, but it will definitely get put into effect. I'm not sure that they agree on much more than that the sky is blue, but in principle, if the tenets of Islam were so universal, then they would almost certainly be democratically legislated in the parliament of any Islamic state as easily and uncontroversially as the U.S. Congress does such things as naming federal buildings. Furthermore, in a representative country, a vast majority of which would be theoretically composed of Muslims, any individual or party perceived as un-Islamic would quickly lose power, the way that scandal-tainted politicians tend to collapse here. Parties that eschewed Islam would have little chance of political success. The constitution of an Islamic state would almost certainly permit political lobbying on religious grounds, which I think would be innocuous enough that the West would not raise too many strenous objections, and the mosques tend to be influential and resourceful in the Islamic world. Whenever experts would be called to testify before the legislature, as legislatures are wont to so, they would almost certainly be drawn from Islamic universities and similar institutions. At the moment, the climate there favors the extremists. The prevailing view that there is only "one true interpretation" of Islam means that for one Muslim to disagree with another is practically a challenge to a duel ... and the extremists tend to be the ones who are the most well-armed and the most ruthless. More proportional representation might do some good at moving the debate back towards the center, and might make some of the currently silent centrists, if they're there, feel a greater sense of empowerment and a willingness to take on the extreme elements of society. The inevitable compromises of democratic politics might make it seem like a "pure" interpretation of Islam is getting lost in the mix somewhere. However, the existence of so many different interpretations of Islam as the world stands today seems to indicate that no living human has the 100% perfect solution today. As such, the inevitable compromises seem more likely to bring about a result as close to whatever the "true" interpretation might be as imperfect humans are capable of estimating. In short, there is no reason why a Muslim democracy looks like it would be any less Islamic than an Islamic dictatorship or theocracy ... if that is honestly and truly what the people of the Muslim world really want. I hope that this is what ends up happening in Iran, and hopefully Iraq as well, once Saddam is gone. Time will tell. --Phoenix Rising
 
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muslim    RE:Does Islam Preclude Democracy?   10/18/2002 3:53:28 AM
"Realistically, any state erected along the lines that you advocate would turn into another Iran, or possibly more like the UAR that lasted from 1958-'61 or so when Egypt and Syria temporarily united." One difference you are not taking into consideration is the requirement that people understand Islam and know what Islamic laws are, and laws shouldn't be applied. The examples you just mentioned didn't even apply Islam correctly, and the people's understanding of Islam is much like today's if not lesser. So we are talking about two different situations. "This is nearly irrelevant as far as political science and nation-building are concerned; Christians share a great many beliefs in common, but it hasn't stopped Catholics and Protestants from killing each other in Northern Ireland" An even better example: Iraqi muslims and Irani muslims believed in those fundementals, yet they fought each other in the 80's. That shows that the people need to have a better and deeper understanding of Islam than that, which I have no problem saying. I understand how you reach you conclusion about this Islamic system, and it is probably more my fault than yours. First, I would like to say one thing, Islam is enternal and universal, this is something that all muslims agree to. Islam is from God, this is something all musilms agree to. And Islam is complete, again, something all muslims agree to. Now, in order for me to explain to you how is possible that fallible humans can accurately interpret infallible laws (the Quran and Sunnah), you would have to agree to the same things muslims agree to. It based on one thing, if God sent us a system, why would he send us one we can't apply, or even interpret? "I don't believe that it is possible for any human to completely know the mind of God " I never said this. But we can understand what God TOLD us, I see no flaw in that. As for the ruler, and how to insure he will not go way too far with his power... Again, his power is not at all legistlative, so he can't add anything to the system of Islam. The danger that I will agree with you on is when he starts to add things in the name of Islam, and for that, I say it is the responsibility of EVERYONE around the ruler to make sure that does not happen, and everyone includes scholars, judges, military, advisors, and civilians. That's why educating the muslims about Islam is so important, because even if the ruler manages to somehow influence some judges, or some military officers so that he could get more power, the people (military and civilian) and the scholars will be able to do something to remove him. The biggest reason why the Islamic political existence is now gone is because the people didn't care anymore, that's the real danger. When that happens, it doesn't matter what society you are in, that society will fall. "I wish you luck and I commend your willingness to work towards promoting understanding, but if your system ever appeared on the verge of taking root anywhere, expect resistance not only from the West, but from the indigenous people of whatever region are at risk of falling into its oppressive grip." First of all, it is not MY system. Second, I have a pretty good idea of what threats will exist once it is close to implementation, but no matter what threats exist, they cannot beat the will of the people (again, military and civilian). Ofcourse there are a lot of issues that need to be taken care of as I mentioned in my last post, but those are issues that every system coming to power has to deal with, and there is always a way to do it. To conclude, the system I am describing is based on the education level of the people and the sencerity of the scholars. It is not expected to be perfect, but in time, it will rise to become the best. The ruler has no legistlative power, although he could atempt to disguise additions in the name of Islam, that's where the people's and the scholars' education and sincerity comes into play. And lastly, it will not be the best at first, and it will not cover the entire muslim world until it can adequetly protect it and provide for it. I hope I answered your questions and addressed your concerns, I don't expect you to agree with me, I only expect you to understand the reasons and the point of view. Who knows, maybe someday we will be in a position to apply what we say, and I hope this discussion will help in that.
 
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veritas    RE:Does Islam Preclude Democracy?   10/21/2002 1:38:52 PM
I joined this rather late... I dont know what I am about to say has already been said... Democracy gives sovrigenty to the people. Islam does not. That is why they are not compitable. That does not mean that leaders should not be elected, indeed they HAVE to be given b'aya, which is close to a vote. The people even can elect an assembley to keep the exeuctive in check...the Ulema HAVE NO OFFICAL ROLE (unlike some rather absurd connections to Shia Iran). However Democracy rules people by their whims and desires, Islam rules them with Islamic law. However, to put this in western terms, a social contract is still required from teh ruled inorder for the state to be truly Islamic. To say that Islam is not compitable with democracy does not mean that Islam support dictatorship or monarchy, indeed it is also opposed to thse as they rule people by the whims of men as well. More later..
 
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veritas    Iran   10/21/2002 1:41:27 PM
One more thing, to connect THe Islamic state to Iran is not valid. Iran is full of shias who have a differnt instution or ruling. They have an intrenched clergy class and are essintally waiting for a divinly guided ruler to come... until which they are willing to accept compromise Islamic states, a mix between westeren style clergy , western style republics and Islamic values. Sunnis, who are 90%+ of the Muslim population regcognise no clergy. So to compaire what Muslim and I talk about to Shia Iran is like comparing apples to oranges.
 
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veritas    RE:Does Islam Preclude Democracy?   10/21/2002 1:44:57 PM
"The prevailing view that there is only "one true interpretation" of Islam means that for one Muslim to disagree with another is practically a challenge to a duel" You have a very weak understanding of Muslims if this is how you think. Aside from the Shia Sunni divide, Muslims know how to hold their differnces while respecting each other. AN ISLAMIC can and does allow differences of opnion. Please note that all four Sunni schools of jurisprudence arose during the time there was an Islamic state, and that they functioned well UNDER ONE STATE.
 
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Matt Smith    RE:Does Islam Preclude Democracy?   10/21/2002 11:48:12 PM
>However Democracy rules people by their whims and desires, Islam rules them with Islamic law. This is a very strange statement, all liberal democracies have their societal structure based around the law, this law does place limits on the tolerable behaviour of its citizens. Australia has a shared heritage with the UK of English Common Law which has been either retained or supplanted by legislation passed in Parliament. This means of law making is explicitly non-religious, as has been the case in much of Protestant Western Europe since the 18th Century. Reason/Enlightenment as a philosophical approach that transcends any particular religious affiliation or most of them anyway, is a current of thought recognisable to Liberal Democrats, Ecumenical Christians and Buddhists but not to Muslims. It's implementation may be flawed, but it is a far more tolerant approach because it embraces rather than rejects pluralism. Islamists like Socialists and Communists before them are threatened by pluralism and thus use whatever means available to deny or destroy it. This more than anything else is an issue that needs to be addressed in any future Islamic State. Yes the old Caliphate did show a great degree of tolerance towards those of other faiths in comparison to other cultures that were contemporary to it. The modern age however would view the enlightenment of the 10th century as ignorance in the 21st century for very obvious reasons. Denying the right to arms and imposing taxes on someone because they don't share your ideology isn't considered progressive any more.
 
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muslim    RE:Does Islam Preclude Democracy?   10/23/2002 3:19:52 AM
"Islamists like Socialists and Communists before them are threatened by pluralism and thus use whatever means available to deny or destroy it. This more than anything else is an issue that needs to be addressed in any future Islamic State. Yes the old Caliphate did show a great degree of tolerance towards those of other faiths in comparison to other cultures that were contemporary to it. The modern age however would view the enlightenment of the 10th century as ignorance in the 21st century for very obvious reasons. Denying the right to arms and imposing taxes on someone because they don't share your ideology isn't considered progressive any more." I am only concerned with what you say about Islam, I leave democracy for you to analyze. About Islam, have you ever thought about what color a muslim is? Have you ever thought about what religion an Arab is? If you analyze both, you will see Muslims ranging from blonde hair blue eyes to skin darker than coal. If you analyze Arabs, you will find Jews, Christians, and Muslims (you will not find a polytheist Arab, It would be VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY rare). The point is that if Islam doesn't embrace pluralism, don't you think that 1400 years in existence would've wiped out any type of diversity amongst Muslims and Arabs? Islam has been with Arabs for the last 1400 years, without a break, if Islam really isn't tolerant to any other religions, you wouldn't find any Jewish or Christian Arabs, they would all be either Muslim or dead.
 
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Matt Smith    RE:Does Islam Preclude Democracy?   10/23/2002 4:42:31 PM
Why are you now making race & racial characteristics an issue? I was referring to pluralism in terms of accomodating other ideologies, not physical appearance. >>Islam has been with Arabs for the last 1400 years, without a break, if Islam really isn't tolerant to any other religions, you wouldn't find any Jewish or Christian Arabs, they would all be either Muslim or dead. And you mean there are absolutely no muslims arab or otherwise attempting to foster this end? How many practising Jewish or Christian Arabs are there in Saudi Arabia? At least one man that I am aware of was executed in Iran for the 'crime' of converting from Islam to Christianity. I'm sure the Coptic Christians in Egypt can also regale us with tales of the warm and fuzzy side of Islam, how many Coptic terrorists have you heard of? Then there are the Druse who insisted on performing military service for the Israeli state rather than be persecuted and slaughtered by their muslim neighbours. The Crusades were finished 500 years ago because the Christians had internal problems to deal with. Islam is still blaming an obsolete external opponent for contemporary problems.
 
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muslim    RE:Does Islam Preclude Democracy?   10/23/2002 11:32:01 PM
"Why are you now making race & racial characteristics an issue? I was referring to pluralism in terms of accomodating other ideologies, not physical appearance." I wasn't bringing race into this, I was just trying to make it clear that Islam is no way limited to a certain group, which I am sure is the same with other religions, at least christianity. "And you mean there are absolutely no muslims arab or otherwise attempting to foster this end? How many practising Jewish or Christian Arabs are there in Saudi Arabia? At least one man that I am aware of was executed in Iran for the 'crime' of converting from Islam to Christianity. I'm sure the Coptic Christians in Egypt can also regale us with tales of the warm and fuzzy side of Islam, how many Coptic terrorists have you heard of? Then there are the Druse who insisted on performing military service for the Israeli state rather than be persecuted and slaughtered by their muslim neighbours. The Crusades were finished 500 years ago because the Christians had internal problems to deal with. Islam is still blaming an obsolete external opponent for contemporary problems." I have always been a person who doesn't like to accept things the way they are, instead, I like to be the one who tries to make reality into what it should be, WITHOUT FORCING ANYONE. So when I see what the arab countries do today to the Jews, I feel that it needs to change, in some way. Although I find it hard to do under the current conditions, but not impossible. As for the christians, well, I can only bring you examples from my experience: I used to attend a PRIVATE muslim school in Jordan. There was a christian student in my class, and he was allowed to leave class during the Islamic studies class. One day, we were talking about Jihad, and as usual, this student left before the class started, when he returned, we JOKINGLY told him what we talked about in class, and we had a few laughs about how he should be muslim, and that was it. He wasn't an outcast, he felt no need to be afraid of us, and we felt no need to beat him up for anything My point is simple, that example is what I feel Islam says things should be. I am not saying Jordan is better than most Arab countries, in fact I hate that traitor Abdulah and his father. But, in Jordan at least, christians are very comfortable, and tourists are as well, EVEN THE JEWISH ONES. About the coptics, believe me, they hate us MUCH more than arabs hate them. And as for killing the converts, that is one other thing that needs to be left for the muslims to settle, I personally don't agree, and I know many muslims who agree, some are scholars, and some are not. The bottom line, I am not saying the Arabs are perfect, I am not saying muslims are perfect, but I am saying Islam is; and if done correctly, it can become the most beautiful nation in the world.
 
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Matt Smith    RE:Does Islam Preclude Democracy?   10/24/2002 12:36:23 AM
>>I have always been a person who doesn't like to accept things the way they are, instead, I like to be the one who tries to make reality into what it should be, WITHOUT FORCING ANYONE. I believe I agree with the sentiment, I think one of the noblest epitaths to aspire to in this life is to leave the world in better shape than you found it, if that is what you mean by making reality into what it should be. Who is Abdulah and why is he a traitor along with his old man?
 
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Phoenix Rising    RE:Does Islam Preclude Democracy?   10/25/2002 2:29:43 PM
veritas, You claim that Islam will rule people by something more than the whims and desires of mortals. Yet, how will you determine what these 'immortal' principles are without having to see them through the distorted lens of human perception? At the end of the day, it's going to be a human mind determining what policies are enacted and human voices and hands putting those policies into effect. Claiming that the people doing so have some kind of 'divine mandate' has historically been a recipe for disaster. It's easy to claim that they were all doing it incorrectly before and that everything will work out right once it is done the right way, but as soon as two different people disagree on what that "right way" is, you've sown the seeds of civil war before your hypothetical country even gets off the ground, with each side believing that they carry the standard of Allah. No good can possibly come of that. Rule according to the "whims and desires of the people" doesn't sound appealing from a perfectionist's point of view, but it works because it doesn't pretend to be something that it isn't. --Phoenix Rising
 
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