Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Eternal Wars Discussion Board
Sign In   Return to Topic Page
Subject: What is Victory
Final Historian    5/4/2004 9:44:33 PM
I have a question for everyone here. What is Victory? I mean, in the sense of the "war on terror". How will we know when we have won? Can we win? What metrics do we use?
 
Quote    Reply

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest

Pages: PREV  1 2 3
Jerry W. Loper    RE:What is Victory   9/15/2004 5:08:59 PM
Considering the kind of enemy we're facing, fanatical non-state actors, who we're never going to sign some formal peace treaty with at a table, I guess the closest thing to "victory" we can hope for is that there are no more catastrophic level attacks like 9/11, but that the attacks will peter down down periodic attacks like car bombings, suicide bombings, kidnappings/head choppings, etc. For the terrorists, a victory means an attack that kills a bunch of us, but for us a victory's not so conspicuous because it's basically just life going on as usual. But I don't expect any best-case scenarios to start unfolding until we've started going after the terrorists' state sponsors; sooner or later the War on Terror is going to have to be taken to Damascus, Tehran, etc.
 
Quote    Reply

jastayme3    RE:What is Victory   9/17/2004 2:40:18 PM
Considering the kind of enemy we're facing, fanatical non-state actors, who we're never going to sign some formal peace treaty with at a table, I guess the closest thing to "victory" we can hope for is that there are no more catastrophic level attacks like 9/11, but that the attacks will peter down down periodic attacks like car bombings, suicide bombings, kidnappings/head choppings, etc. For the terrorists, a victory means an attack that kills a bunch of us, but for us a victory's not so conspicuous because it's basically just life going on as usual. But I don't expect any best-case scenarios to start unfolding until we've started going after the terrorists' state sponsors; sooner or later the War on Terror is going to have to be taken to Damascus, Tehran, etc. ---------------------------------------------- I think I would more or less agree with that.
 
Quote    Reply

sofa    victory is tolerance for my people   3/15/2007 12:07:18 AM
Here's my short list...
 
1. Pork barbeque at the christian cathedrals in Mecca, Medina, Bagdad, Tehran, x100 cities.
 
2. Open kegs, rock bands, and wet T-shirt contests at the Hooters in those cities.
 
3. No hajib, equal rights for women.
 
4. No dhimmitude, no slavery.
 
5. Butchery and barbarism is not tolerated.

 

 
Quote    Reply

sofa    metrics for defeat   3/15/2007 2:25:07 AM
Defeat is dhimmitude, slavery, barbarism, and dark ages.
 
Islam has removed numerous other cultures, and now plots the end of western culture.
End of science, western rule of law, western philosophies, democratic institutions, western economics which have enriched the world, end of medicine, end of womens rights. Read the koran.
 
Don't blame me - I'm just a guy who read it before you and is trying to get you to wake up to what it really says, and how that plays out in the real world.
 
 
Quote    Reply

kane       3/15/2007 11:51:48 AM

Here's my short list...
 

1. Pork barbeque at the christian cathedrals in Mecca, Medina, Bagdad, Tehran, x100 cities.

 

2. Open kegs, rock bands, and wet T-shirt contests at the Hooters in those cities.

 

3. No hajib, equal rights for women.

 

4. No dhimmitude, no slavery.

 

5. Butchery and barbarism is not tolerated.

 





A lot of these things already exist.It is now obvious that you have no idea about who you're insulting
Rock bands?LOL there are countless rock and metal bands and I'm a fan of them ;)
(Again I'm not a Muslim)
In Islam man and woman are equal!
Butchery and barbarism and killing innocents is the greatest sin
Slavery?!?!??!?!?!WHAT THE HELL,it is one of the first things Islam forbid.LOL you really have no idea
Well those festivals do not happen in every country,well at least we have them in Turkey
About the church thing........well there are churches in Muslim countries
Phew,how old are you?Haven't you learned anything all these years.You're going backwards with your knowledge
 
Quote    Reply

kane       3/15/2007 12:15:15 PM

Defeat is dhimmitude, slavery, barbarism, and dark ages.

 

Islam has removed numerous other cultures, and now plots the end of western culture.

End of science, western rule of law, western philosophies, democratic institutions, western economics which have enriched the world, end of medicine, end of womens rights. Read the koran.

 

Don't blame me - I'm just a guy who read it before you and is trying to get you to wake up to what it really says, and how that plays out in the real world.

 

It's not that I like the Islamic empire but I guess you have never heard about those ages
Between 800s-1200s and later accomplishment of Ottomans
In Islam god wants Muslims to advance in science
Koran says EVERY HUMAN BEING IS EQUAL
Why do you think it would end democracy?I don't remember Koran saying chose a dictator :S
WHere did you learn all these BS man come on
Actually I shouldn't blame badly educate people like you,becuse of lack oof knowledge people like you may have bad view on Islam because of the extremist Muslims.Even extreme Islam is not Islam,it's wrong
+I do likeand live in a western(more like Eurasin culture) and I don't want religious laws
It's not because of Islam's rules
 
Quote    Reply

sofa       3/16/2007 8:16:39 PM


A lot of these things already exist.It is now obvious that you have no idea about who you're insulting

Rock bands?LOL there are countless rock and metal bands and I'm a fan of them ;)

(Again I'm not a Muslim)

In Islam man and woman are equal!

Butchery and barbarism and killing innocents is the greatest sin

Slavery?!?!??!?!?!WHAT THE HELL,it is one of the first things Islam forbid.LOL you really have no idea

Well those festivals do not happen in every country,well at least we have them in Turkey

About the church thing........well there are churches in Muslim countries

Phew,how old are you?Haven't you learned anything all these years.You're going backwards with your knowledge

 
Kane,
I'm not insulting. I'm pointing out inconvenient facts.
The enemy is fanatical barbaric intolerance. It's enabler is ignorance and wishful thinking.
How many cathedrals in Mecca, Medina? Hooters? Keggers? Rock Bands?  
 
How about just tourists?
Oh - they get killed just for being there.
"Butchery and barbarism and killing innocents is the greatest sin"?
So how come it always happens?
Read the Medina portions of the koran.
What is abrogation?
 
"In Islam man and woman are equal"?
    Is that why they worship together in a mosque?
    Is that why women wear hijab?
    Is that why women are stoned for being the victim of rape?
    Is that why marraiages are consumated between 9 year olds and 55 year olds?
  
 
Kane, You live in Turkey, not an islamic country.
Consider that the world is not like Turkey.
Visit these other countries, familiarize yourself with their histories and sacred texts.
Don't defend it if you don't know what it is...
 
Some truly barbaric facts from wikipedia below.
----
 
excerpt below from: "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Islam"
 
 Women as slaves

There are several disabilities on the civil and economic rights of women and girls enslaved with the connivance of Islam which may affect them at all times of their lives:
  • they may not inherit property, even if they are freed upon their owner's death.
  • their evidence is generally rejected in a court of law
  • they cannot hold property and must hand over to their owner any they may acquire
  • except as their master's agent they may not carry on trade or business
  • slaves may lawfully killed in vengeance (talio) if their master or their master's kinfolk kill the slave of another person
  • except in the Hanafi... madhhab, slaves may be killed for killing other slaves but no free person may be killed for killing a slave. If they are killed by a free man, the killer is only liable to at the time of the death not to pay their owner their sale value and not full blood-money compensation. Thus, their owners may kill them with impunity.
  • they are not permitted marriage without their owner's consent. A master cannot be compelled to give his/her consent to his/her slave's marriage. By the view of some madh'hab... (but not others), a master may compel his/her slave(s) to marriage and determine the identity of their marriage partner(s)
  • the mahr that is given for marriage to a female slave is taken by her owner, whereas all other women possess it absolutely for themselves

The property of slaves is owned by the master unless the master has granted the terms of a mukataba, which allowed the slave to earn money to purchase his or her freedom and similarly to pay bride wealth.

Slavery as an institution which, as elsewhere in the ancient world, Islam took for granted both at the time of the Qur'an's revelation and subsequently. However, Islam mitigated slavery by recommending kindness and the f

 
Quote    Reply

sofa    dhimmitude   3/16/2007 8:55:12 PM
 
Dhimmitude
excerpts from: "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmitude"
 

Etymology

The term is said to have been invented in 1982... by the Lebanese... Maronite... militia leader Bachir Gemayel..., in reference to perceived attempts by the country's Muslim leadership to subordinate the large Lebanese Christian minority. In a speech of September 14..., 1982 given at Dayr al-Salib in Lebanon, he said: "Lebanon is our homeland and will remain a homeland for Christians . . . We want to continue to christen, to celebrate our rites and traditions, our faith and our creed whenever we wish . . . Henceforth, we refuse to live in any dhimmitude!" Gemayel was assassinated shortly after he gave the speech.

It was introduced into Western discourse by the writer Bat Ye'or... around 1983.... It was used in English as early as 1985 in a book review by Prof. James E. Biechler in the Journal of Ecumenical Studies, in which he praised Ye'or's work, commenting that "Perhaps the single most significant contribution of the author is her definition and development of the concept of 'dhimmitude'". Ye'or further popularised the term in her books The Decline of Eastern Christianity under Islam. From Jihad to Dhimmitude. Seventh-Twentieth Century and the 2003 followup Islam and Dhimmitude: Where Ci... After the September 11, 2001 terrorist a..., the term became far more widely used, particularly in discussions about Islamism....

[...]

Bat Yeor's definition:

"As for the concept of dhimmitude, it represents a behavior dictated by fear (terrorism...), pacifism... when aggressed, rather than resistance, servility because of cowardice and vulnerability. The origin of this concept is to be found in the condition of the Infidel... people who submit to the Islamic... rule without fighting in order to avoid the onslaught of jihad.... By their peaceful surrender to the Islamic army, they obtained the security for their life, belongings and religion, but they had to accept a condition of inferiority, spoliation and humiliation. As they were forbidden to possess weapons and give testimony against a Muslim, they were put in a position of vulnerability and humility."[6]...

Bernard Lewis..., Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Studies... at Princeton University..., states that

"If we look at the considerable literature available about the position of Jews in the Islamic world, we find two well-established myths. One is the story of a golden age of equality, of mutual respect and cooperation, especially but not exclusively in Moorish Spain; the other is of “dhimmi”-tude, of subservience and persecution and ill treatment. Both are myths. Like many myths, both contain significant elements of truth, and the historic truth is in its usual place, somewhere in the middle between the extremes."[7]...

Robert Spencer... author of the Quote    Reply

PREV  1 2 3



StrategyWorld.com© 1998 - 2012StrategyWorld.com. All rights Reserved. StrategyWorld.com, StrategyPage.com, FYEO, For Your Eyes Only and Al Nofi's CIC are all trademarks of StrategyWorld.com Privacy Policy