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Subject: SGTObvious Manifesto 2, Defnitions, and Infallibility
SGTObvious    8/21/2003 7:27:26 AM
I'm going somewhere with this, I know it (with less than 100% certainty, see below) but I get a feeling I wont know exactly where it is till Manifesto 5 or 6. Fallibility, Infallibility, Certainty, and Definitions I'd like to start off with a free prize for all who read this- SGTObvious will now destroy a favorite paradox asked by over-inquisitive children for centuries. "Can God create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it?" What is the answer? The answer is No. That's right. Here's why. Before we answer a question, we have to agree on the meaning of the question. If we don't agree on the meaning, the answer is useless. If you ask me, how big is a hamster, and I define "hamster" to mean "the state of Nebraska", the answer will be of no use to us- and meaningless. In this question, when we say God, we mean an Omnipotent, (Can do anything) Omniscient (Knows Everything) being. We trust the being is Benevolent, too, because if not, well, that would be bad and is further discussed below. If you have any other meaning for God, we do not agree on the terms of the question. Now God, being Omnipotent, is an unstoppable force, by definition. A rock he could not move, by definition, would be an immovable object. So our question really says "Can unstoppable force move an immovable object". Now, look again. The definition of unstoppable force MEANS that no immovable object can exist. By allowing the term to be used, if we accept its meaning, we cannot accept the existence of the other. The one is the Negation of the other. So, we can refine our paradoxial sentence again, and we get: "Can X = Not X?" If X equals Not X, we do not have a definition of X. If X is undefined, we have no business asking questions about it, or answering them. It's meaningless. I could just as well ask, is a splatsblu a derfjik? With the terms undefined, the questions do not matter. So, God cannot make a rock he cannot lift, because if he could the question itself would be undefined and make no sense. SInce the Answer cannot possibly be Yes, it must be No. You might say, Aha, but this shows there is something God cannot do, so he is not Omnipotent! Wrong. Since the action you propose God cannot do is logically and mathematically undefinable, it cannot exist, even in theory. God can do anything definable. It is nonsense to ask if he can do undefinable things- we cannot ask a question we do not agree on- and in any event non-definable things have no bearing on a definition of God. Can we accept God as infallible? If we beleive that God is Omnipotent- capable of doing anything- it logically follwos that God has the capability of Omniscience- knowing everything. The gathering and processing of information is a definable action, therefore, God can do it without limitations. God may choose to leave some things unknown, to allow/create Free Will for example, but he has the capability to know everything. The doubter says- wait, if he chooses not to know everything, then he is not really Omniscient, is he? Yes he is. Just as he is still Omnipotent even though he chooses not to do everything. So, God is Omniscient. Does this mean he is infallible? We might think that if God can choose to Not Know something, he might be, by his own choice, fallible. Where God fails, if he fails, it is his own choice. But we have to define failure. But "fail" is a judgement term. It means an outcome was judged to be inferior to an intended outcome. COnsider an possible action on God's part. He may choose to act, and thereby do anything he wills, or he may choose to not act, and leave the outcome to chance or human nature. If he chooses not to act, the outcome is still reflective of his choice, and so, any judgement on our part of "failure" is strictly a limited, personal one. Although I choose not to beleive God views the world as a game, consider this analogy: You set up a chessboard. You have the option of playing both sides, and every move will be exactly as you will it to be, and your chosen side will win. Or, you set up a computer to play the other side, and it defeats you. Did you really fail? You lost the game, but you chose that possibility. Your intended Goal was a realistic and challenging game, and you got it. Still think you failed? Perhaps, from the point of view of the White King, you did, but not from your point of view. You lost a game, but only within the perspective of the game. From a far broader perspective, you succeeded. So, God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Infallible. People, on the other hand, are another story. With a few exceptions, all people admit their own infallibility. There is a small and dangerous subclass of people that claims that depsite their mortal infallibility, they can interpret the will of God with absolute infallibilty. They are wrong. They might have extremely strong feelings on the subject, but that is irrelevant. They might
 
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Nanheyangrouchuan    RE:SGTObvious Manifesto 2, Defnitions, and Infallibility   5/4/2004 12:23:39 PM
By God being Omnipotent everything is automatically subject to God's will. So God could create a rock that He cannot lift, but when He tries to lift it His Will will be done and therefore the rock is lifted.
 
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Nanheyangrouchuan    RE:SGTObvious Manifesto 2, Defnitions, and Infallibility   5/4/2004 12:25:20 PM
By claiming to know the Will of God you try to place yourself at God's level and only God can be at God's level and therefore you commit blasphemy.
 
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SGTObvious    You have solved your own contradiction, Jastayme!   5/4/2004 1:44:03 PM
Yes, That is how you entertain two opposing beliefs. We can "beleive what we beleive" but we can also understand that we may be mistaken. It is a perfectly human thing, by the way, to hold to contradictory beliefs. It may in fact be what the universe is built from.
 
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SGTObvious    Well, Nan, I was getting there by a different route...   5/4/2004 1:49:58 PM
"By claiming to know the Will of God you try to place yourself at God's level and only God can be at God's level and therefore you commit blasphemy" But that is pretty much where I was going, but from a logic point of view. If you claim to know the will of God, you have in effect claimed "it is not possible that God has caused me to be mistaken", and therefore, you beleive that God is not omnipotent.
 
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Nanheyangrouchuan    RE:Well, Nan, I was getting there by a different route...   5/6/2004 11:45:10 AM
It was late and I was tired, I'll try harder next time.
 
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doggtag    RE:SGTObvious Manifesto 2, Defnitions, and Infallibility   5/7/2004 3:42:33 PM
When can we get this paperback? I gots $$money$$....
 
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chemist    More torquing of the tail.   5/24/2004 5:48:41 AM
Get it yet archenar? We weren't amused by your claiming that flowery language of the Quran coupled with modern revisionism proves Islam crapolla. So, let's put Sarge's posts up on the top where they'll be looked at. Doom on you, archenar.
 
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ilpars    RE:SGTObvious Manifesto 2, Defnitions, and Infallibility - Jastayme3 and SGTObvious   5/27/2004 6:40:42 AM
"I also believe that some things are what God told Man, including me, about his will God cannot lie Therefore what he told me must be true." But we humans are falliable. So a mortal can not truly understand the will of the God. SGTObvious you would like reading Bektasi a Turkish Islamic scholar of 12th-13th century. He was following a similar kind of logic with you. He had no follower outside of Anatolia and Balkans. But he affected Ottoman society very deeply. Maybe if I can find time, I can translate some of his doctrine for you.
 
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chemist    RE:SGTObvious Manifesto 2, Defnitions, and Infallibility - Jastayme3 and SGTObvious   5/28/2004 3:08:00 AM
Don't worry Ilpars. We've got translations of German philosophers who went with and against this line of reasoning.
 
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ilpars    RE:SGTObvious Manifesto 2, Defnitions, and Infallibility - chemist   5/28/2004 3:31:50 AM
Yes, I know. I have read some of them in High School after a friend's recommendations. Then I got bored with philosophy and interested in History. I thought, SGT would find it interesting that a Muslim sdholar and Philosopher had reached the same line of reasoning with him in Medeival Age.
 
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