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Subject: The Reqirement For Christian-Muslim Peace
David_Blue2002@yahoo.com.au    10/28/2001 5:47:57 AM
Sure this is a strategy website, but philosophically, the end of war is peace, so let's consider the requirement of peace in an "eternal conflict". One could not want a better expert than Professor Seyyed Hossein Nasr to explain the Muslim viewpoint fairly, and lay down the real requirement of Christian-Muslim peace. Now at time when frustration threatens to move the debate from strategic necessity to real religious hostility, it is right to consider this "eternal war" in the light of history, and the mutual hopes for all peoples for peace on the terms they desire. As witnessed by the Pope's Year 2000 apology for Christianity's dark past (which included harsh words and negative attitudes about Islam), non-Muslims have a lot to be sorry for in this conflict. Also, Muslims now face the threat or at least the thought of persecution in Western societies, so we should consider their viewpoint attentively. What does Professor Seyyed Hossein Nasr identify as the barrier to a fair and free dialogue between Christians and Muslims? What should we do to eradicate this barrier? I invite comments from all. link Seyyed Hossein Nasr is a professor of Islamic Studies at George Washington University in Washington, D.C. He has authored some 40-plus books and over 500 articles. E: And my last question to you: I have learned from you that in the realm of "atmosphere," there is conflict, but reconciliation is possible in the "Divine Stratosphere." If this is so, then only a properly trained scholar in both traditions can engage in any meaningful dialogue. What should the ordinary Muslims in the community do, who have to co-exist with their Christian neighbors? SHN: The Qur'an asserts that the Muslims must have respect for the followers of other religions. As long as Muslims believe in Tawheed (oneness of God) and their book they should not have any problem getting along with the Ahl al-Kitab (People of the Book). This term should be understood in a larger context. This, in my opinion, includes, besides Jews and Christians, all the primordial and orthodox religious traditions, such as Confucianism and Hinduism. However, it is very important to know that at the practical level, things are not that simple for Islam and Christianity. One of these religions, Western Christianity, and on a smaller scale Judaism in Israel, is wed to a tremendous economic and military power structure. This was not a question in the Middle Ages, when two traditional civilizations based on God fought against each other's conception of God. Their armies were fairly even, and they respected each other in the battlefield. It is not like this today. The disparity in power prevents Muslims and Christians sitting together for a fair and free dialogue. Just take [some recent] examples: East Timor and Chechnya both were colonies. East Timor was colonized by the Portuguese some 500 years ago, and Chechnya fairly recently, about 150 to 200 years ago. In the case of East Timor, whose population of about half a million is Catholic, a big international campaign took place, which led to its independence. In the case of Chechnya, on the other hand, where a massive slaughter of Muslims took place, the very Western countries that so often speak about human rights, self-determination, and democracy sit idly by and watch the massacre. There is a strong push into the Muslim world that is based on money and the power of missionaries. There is a significant amount of money being spent in Indonesia and Pakistan in trying to convert people to Christianity. Muslims have no choice but to be awaken and have a sense of vigilance. To be friends is good, but Muslims must not let their guard down as far as religion is concerned.
 
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Rosecroix    RE:In response    9/3/2003 7:01:41 AM
ah i reread my first post, it was not clear it was a historical reference, sorry.
 
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appleciderus    In response to response   9/4/2003 6:19:01 AM
?when did I ever lie to you oh sweet appleciderus? when did i ever tarnish your day? strike you the wrong way? crush your flowers with my bare hands mumbling "mal fleur! die die imperial fleur!" ???? /R ?no seriously. you're free to respond to any thread in which you think my facts are incorrect(and explain why).? I hardly need your permission to respond. That is the purpose of this board. You have asked what ?flower of mine? you have ever crushed. I answer: ?i recently watch a documentary from History Channel's Lawbreakers series about a shootout where KKK members killed communists during an anti clan rally at the "The Greensboro Massacre". there were many people on both sides asked to speak of the times, and apperantly low income workers made up the klan at the time and they beat up and killed people who wanted a union there. and so there was no union, and so there was the same old working conditions, and in my opinion it was not the brightest idea to beat up the people who wanted you to have a better life. so in a way they deserved their poverty since they so avidly defended it from change. though i dont know where greensboro is on a map, i just assumed the south since the KKK was so large in that community.? I am old enough to remember the incident in Greensboro NC, and that is the reason I asked you to elaborate. And, as I feared, very few of the facts described in your response are accurate. There was no union issue involved. Although some of the Communist Workers Party (CWP) involved in this incident were also ?radicals? (their words) pursuing unionization of NC textile mills, they were preparing a march to protest the KKK. The KKK (and some say Nazi?s) drove up to their staging area and confronted the CWP. Shots were fired, all or most by the KKK, and people died. The KKK were not ?union busting?. They were bigots. They were not local. They came from multiple states. They were not statistically ?low paid?. (Some may have been) Bigots exist in every nation, at all income levels. In addition to the KKK bigotry and the Soviet sponsored CWP, there were multiple issues important to Americans that effected the media coverage, police investigation, and prosecution. The incident occurred during the Carter Administration, a time of unprecedented inflation. (Important to retirees and workers) It occurred at the same time as the Iranian?s held hostage the US Embassy in Tehran. (Important to patriots) It occurred shortly after the Viet Nam war. (No comment needed) It occurred shortly after (and during) domestic terrorism atrocities committed by American ?radicals?. (Creating a ?backlash? among a majority of Americans). It occurred as a part of the civil rights movement. So what is my point? Why would this American admit that this was a dark moment in America? Why would he prove my point? Well, it was a dark moment, but it made us stronger. Nations have suffered civil war for less. America examined itself, and became stronger. We have our problems, but good people continue to immigrate. Why? Answer that yourself. What does this have to do with your stepping on my flower? Examine your statement above. The only thing correct is the date. I object to you watching a TV show, offering it as proof of your position, albeit with ?apparently? as a disclaimer. It was not a union issue. Yet you used it to support your political opinion, to state ??they deserved their poverty?? You anticipated no one challenging your report, citing the History Channel as an irrefutable source. You move from the disclaimer ?apparently? to the adjective ?avidly? to describe the less than ?bright? actions of ?low income workers?. (Is this your opinion of American workers, or only those that live in the ?South??) I object to liberals (your admission) using ?generic? television to ?apperantly? come to conclusions. This conclusion then being used as proof of your political POV. Using incomplete information, you have CHOSEN to state: ??they deserved their poverty since they so avidly defended it from change.? It was not a union or poverty issue. What an Olympic leap in fact and logic to massage your liberalism. You have ?crushed? the flower of my expectations. You have compromised your credibility. No number of disclaimers, ?apperantly?, ?so in a way?, ?I just assumed?, absolve you from intentionally using incomplete, faulty or erroneous information to support your political view. You, and others, I described in a post on another thread may point your finger and claim ?foul?. You should apologize for crushing my flower.
 
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Rosecroix    RE:In response to response to response....   9/4/2003 8:03:48 AM
wow. well. actually this is not a very large deal. the show was not proof for my viewpoint, but it was built on it (or rather during that). i would have reached the same conclusion on my own. i think that bluecollar workers activly fighting (as opposed to just not joining) the union lack something in the survival instict department. just like the islamic terrorists this was an allergory to. you say that im in correct in many things. everything but the date specifically. www.gjf.org - greensboro justice fund, is headed by one of the surviving organizers of the march, and there are many more (and their widows) on the board. here's a quote from their page on the domcumentary: "The anti-Klan march and labor organizing conference. The anti-Klan march and conference were organized as a necessary effort to address the very destructive effects of the Klan on the day to day labor organizing done by the WVO in November of 1979. The organizers were union organizers and the KKK had acted as a tool of industry for decades busting unions through violence and racist divisiveness. " apperantly they werent under the impression that "There was no union issue involved.". a point to point quickie: YOU "You anticipated no one challenging your report, citing the History Channel as an irrefutable source." Sorry, History channel and Fox News share the same channel at my cable provider. Didn't know they were the far left's version of debka. as for me anticipating, yeah, that's what the challange for you to point out errors was all about. YOU "You move from the disclaimer ?apparently? to the adjective ?avidly? to describe the less than ?bright? actions of ?low income workers?. (Is this your opinion of American workers, or only those that live in the ?South??)" No, as the text clearly states, i evaluate an action, not a group of persons. If this keeps up im gonna think your making things up and misreading my posts on purpose. YOU "I object to liberals (your admission) using ?generic? television to ?apperantly? come to conclusions. " Thats sweet. what's the alternative? only conservatists may watch tv? whats generic tv anyway? everything left from Fox News, that tells their reports to not forget what side their on? americas version of berlusconi. "No number of disclaimers, ?apperantly?, ?so in a way?, ?I just assumed?, absolve you from intentionally using incomplete, faulty or erroneous information to support your political view." I have not intenionally used faulty or erroneous information. I do not know everything, thus my information is in all things incomplete. and instead of accusing you of lying, which i am sure was unintentional, i must say that in any debate where the participants are not taken from an american style debateclub, but actually interested in exchanging view an learning something from the otherside in stead of politly bashing it, soft wording is beneficial. i freely admit it in text that i didn't know where greensboro was because i might had been wrong and it would have been on the border of canada and some hotshot would have pointed that out and declared everything ive written in everythread as a consious lye. it saves me a lot of trouble. just as it would have saved you if i had been such a hot shot since you were clueless to the nature of the commies congregation. /Rosecruix oh and sorry for crushing your flower. :)
 
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appleciderus    RE:In response to response to response....   9/4/2003 9:53:01 AM
Donkey Dust! No textile employees were organized against the union by the mills. The majority of the KKKers arrested were from out of state. The issue was KKKers hate communists and communists hate KKKers. From the Brooklyn Rail, quoting Sally Bermanzohn: Sally Bermanzohn remembers everything that happened the morning of November 3, 1979 in snapshots, every image clear and precise. She and about fifty other demonstrators from the Communist Workers Party gathered at 11 a.m. near a housing project in the heart of Greensboro, North Carolina?s black community for a scheduled anti-Ku Klux Klan rally. Someone strummed a guitar as college students in red berets sang the civil rights song, "We Shall Not Be Moved." Many of the demonstrators carried signs that read "Death to the Klan." No mention of mills or textile workers. I suspect that claim was added later to solicit sympathy from US labor union members. The signs said ?Death to the Klan?, not union slogans. The Greensboro Justice Fund is probably also quoting Sally, presently a professor at CCNY Brooklyn. (I believe) Sally admits to being a radical and member of the Communist Workers Party, and like many radicals of the 60?s and 70?s who committed illegal acts (from civil disobedience to robbing banks) has now a professorship. The Greensboro community believed: again from the Brooklyn Rail: Local media and Greensboro community leaders framed the event as a shootout between two radical groups of outsiders. This is how I remember the event being reported. Again, no mention of textile mill workers trying to oppose unionization, and I believe the most popular opinion was ?to bad they didn?t all kill each other? (my quotes) Revisionist History is a popular sport in the US. Every group enhances its position in order to justify its actions and behaviors through selective memories and additions/subtractions to the actual events. Human nature. Police hate ?eyewitnesses? to a crime, they are the most unreliable proof involved in the solution to a crime. Setting aside the other arguments, I would like to challenge you on this single matter. You said ??so in a way they deserved their poverty since they so avidly defended it from change? In spite of your qualifiers, you have offended me by saying that American workers deserved the poverty they lived in because they were stupid, when in fact the Greensboro Massacre was about 2 radical groups that could not see past the hatred they had for each other. I think it a shame that they didn?t all kill each other. My flower will grow back.
 
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Rosecroix    RE:In response    9/4/2003 1:06:58 PM
well obviously they only deserved their poverty if they actually did it. guess you're right and the organizers are wrong about what they were doing there then and what the unionizers had experienced before the incident. Its hard for me to know since you too only got two eyewitnesses, you and sally, and i meself was going for my first birthday at the time. but this is not what the thread is about, and with that let me rephrase myself. i meant to say "in a way they're (the terrorists) like children beating up their nanny before they've gotten cookies, their current conditions are what they deserve (with the exception of the contested areas), but not much thinking needs to be done to change that." /Rosecorix
 
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Sikman    IF YOU WANT THE REAL ANSWER   9/11/2003 12:12:48 AM
CHECK OUT WWW.TEAWITHTERRORISTS.COM ITS RUN BY A MAN WHO MET WITH MANY ISLAMIC TERRORISTS (HAMAS, HIZBOLLAH, FATAH, AQ) AND CAME TO A STARTLING DISCOVERY.
 
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jastayme3    RE:The Reqirement For Christian-Muslim Peace   4/28/2004 1:34:41 PM
but philosophically, the end of war is peace, .............................................. Actually I think the end of war is justice and protection, like the purpose of internal policeing Of course peace is a good way to acheive that goal but it is sometimes impossible. In that case I think it is often acceptable to settle for an "acceptable leval of violence" An example is the Indian Northwest Frontier. It was a region of continuous fighting in the 1800's(for that matter always was and still is today). However because raiders were confined to that area, farmers could grow their crops without being robbed. Not the best solution, simply the best available.
 
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jastayme3    RE:I don't know, apple, there might still be hope.   4/28/2004 1:49:24 PM
I'm not doubting you, I'm just wondering, if a few points were removed from Islam, for example, the idea that Islam should be an all-encompassing, Earthly government, perhaps it would still be acceptable and still be islamic? On the other hand, if you stripped islam of every last objectionable belief, I wonder if all you'd have left would be Judaism with one extra prophet. Islam would be to Judaism what Mormonism is to Christianity Previous Comment N .............................................. The problem with modifying Islam is that no true Moslem would go along with it. What kind of religion modifys itself to fit worldly circumstances? I know I wouldn't "modify" Christianity to fit fashion, and I am tempted to dispise those who do(yes, that is not a very Christian attitude; no, I am not perfect). So if Islam does teach that they should conquer the world by force than the only hope for peace is that they will say "later"(though if they are going to conquer the world they should get on with their conquering and stop thinking themselves ill used when others shoot back). Therefore I really don't see any hope for peace in this world. There is some hope for "less war" though.
 
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