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Subject: The Reqirement For Christian-Muslim Peace
David_Blue2002@yahoo.com.au    10/28/2001 5:47:57 AM
Sure this is a strategy website, but philosophically, the end of war is peace, so let's consider the requirement of peace in an "eternal conflict". One could not want a better expert than Professor Seyyed Hossein Nasr to explain the Muslim viewpoint fairly, and lay down the real requirement of Christian-Muslim peace. Now at time when frustration threatens to move the debate from strategic necessity to real religious hostility, it is right to consider this "eternal war" in the light of history, and the mutual hopes for all peoples for peace on the terms they desire. As witnessed by the Pope's Year 2000 apology for Christianity's dark past (which included harsh words and negative attitudes about Islam), non-Muslims have a lot to be sorry for in this conflict. Also, Muslims now face the threat or at least the thought of persecution in Western societies, so we should consider their viewpoint attentively. What does Professor Seyyed Hossein Nasr identify as the barrier to a fair and free dialogue between Christians and Muslims? What should we do to eradicate this barrier? I invite comments from all. link Seyyed Hossein Nasr is a professor of Islamic Studies at George Washington University in Washington, D.C. He has authored some 40-plus books and over 500 articles. E: And my last question to you: I have learned from you that in the realm of "atmosphere," there is conflict, but reconciliation is possible in the "Divine Stratosphere." If this is so, then only a properly trained scholar in both traditions can engage in any meaningful dialogue. What should the ordinary Muslims in the community do, who have to co-exist with their Christian neighbors? SHN: The Qur'an asserts that the Muslims must have respect for the followers of other religions. As long as Muslims believe in Tawheed (oneness of God) and their book they should not have any problem getting along with the Ahl al-Kitab (People of the Book). This term should be understood in a larger context. This, in my opinion, includes, besides Jews and Christians, all the primordial and orthodox religious traditions, such as Confucianism and Hinduism. However, it is very important to know that at the practical level, things are not that simple for Islam and Christianity. One of these religions, Western Christianity, and on a smaller scale Judaism in Israel, is wed to a tremendous economic and military power structure. This was not a question in the Middle Ages, when two traditional civilizations based on God fought against each other's conception of God. Their armies were fairly even, and they respected each other in the battlefield. It is not like this today. The disparity in power prevents Muslims and Christians sitting together for a fair and free dialogue. Just take [some recent] examples: East Timor and Chechnya both were colonies. East Timor was colonized by the Portuguese some 500 years ago, and Chechnya fairly recently, about 150 to 200 years ago. In the case of East Timor, whose population of about half a million is Catholic, a big international campaign took place, which led to its independence. In the case of Chechnya, on the other hand, where a massive slaughter of Muslims took place, the very Western countries that so often speak about human rights, self-determination, and democracy sit idly by and watch the massacre. There is a strong push into the Muslim world that is based on money and the power of missionaries. There is a significant amount of money being spent in Indonesia and Pakistan in trying to convert people to Christianity. Muslims have no choice but to be awaken and have a sense of vigilance. To be friends is good, but Muslims must not let their guard down as far as religion is concerned.
 
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Condor Legion    RE:Moe selective reasoning - but not Curly,Larry, or Shemp   8/30/2003 5:39:29 PM
Right, so what exactly do we call: HAMAS, HizbAllah, Islamic Jihad, al Qaeda, the PLO, Lashkar-e-Taiba, Jaish-e-Mohammed, Moro Islamic Liberation Front, Abu Sayyaf, Harakat-ul-Mujahideen, the Amal Militia, al Quds Forces, Islamic Liberation Army, Armed Islamic Movement, The Islamic Liberation Front, al-Nida Force, Armed Vanguards of Conquest, Azzam Organization, Egyptian Jihad, the International Muslim Brotherhood, World Islamic Front, Brigades/Battalions of Faith, Committee for Defense of Legitimate Rights, Islamic Salvation Front, Heros of Islamic Jihad, Hizb-i Islami, Hizb ul-Mujahideen, Hizb-ut-Tahrir, Islamic Action Front, Islamic Army for the Liberation of Holy Places, Islamic Charter Front, International Islamic Front aka the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders, International Islamist Legion, International Justice Group, Islamic Change Movement...and between 500 and 1000 other groups whose names I won't even try to remember because they change after every attack anyway. ...if we can't call them Muslims, Moslems, or Islamics, what do we call them? The half the time the media won't even call them the terrorists that they are, prefering the more benign "militant." But even the liberal press gets the idea that they are Muslim/Moslem/Islamic. Allah wills the Islamic world to commit racial/religious suicide in front of the Israeli and American guns? PRAISE THE LORD AND PASS MORE AMMO, CL
 
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appleciderus    I'm struck by the logic   8/30/2003 5:59:11 PM
If I understood Muslim's post correctly, we Kefirs do not understand that ,militant islam, not true islam, is the cause of these atrocities, conflicts and discourse. However it doesn't matter. Since islam will rule the world in it's entirety eventually, allah will make it right?
 
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swhitebull    You want lists? i gots lists   8/30/2003 6:24:11 PM
From my Terrorist Database: 432 Organizations, of which, I believe, 275,or 64%, belong to, are to be,Islamic in nature. If you look at all the other groups represented by RELIGIOUS gripes, you find a mere handful. So that means of all terrorist groups RELIGIOUS in nature, nearly 100% are Islamic. Now why is that? You be the judge: GroupName Country Acronym Harkat-i-Islami Afghanistan Jamaat e Islami Afghanistan National Islamic Movement Afghanistan NIM Northern Alliance Afghanistan Taliban Afghanistan Taliban Militia Afghanistan United Islamic Front for the Salvation of Afghanistan Afghanistan UIFSA Alliance for a Free Kabylie Algeria AKAL Armed Islamic Group Algeria GIA Belmokhtar Group Algeria Islamic Salvation Front / Islamic Salvation Army Algeria FIS/AIS Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat (GSPC) Algeria Cabinda Democratic Front Angola FDC Cabinda Enclave Liberation Front - Cabinda Armed Forces Angola FLEC-FAC Cabinda Enclave Liberation Front - Renovada Angola FLEC-R National Union for the Total Independence of Angola Angola UNITA Bavarian Liberation Army Austria BLA People's Extra Parliamentary Opposition Austria VAPO Hezbollah-Gulf/Bahrain Bahrain Islamic Front for the Liberation of Bahrain Bahrain IFLB Movement for the Liberation of Bahrain Bahrain MLB Shanti Bahini Bangladesh Fighting Communist Cells Belgium CCC National Liberation Army - Bolivia Bolivia ELN Tupac Katari Guerrilla Army Bolivia EGTK Forces for the Defense of Democracy Burundi FDD National Council for the Defense of Democracy Burundi CNDD National Liberation Forces Burundi FNL National Liberation Front Burundi Frolina Party for the Liberation of the Hutu People Burundi PLPH Party of Democratic Kampuchea Cambodia Front de Liberation du Quebec Canada FLQ Armed Forces for a Federal Republic Chad FARF Chadian National Front Chad FNT Movement for Democracy and Development Chad MDD National Awakening Committee for Peace and Democracy Chad CSNPD National Council for Rebuilding Chad Chad CNTR National Council for Recovery Chad CNR National Front for the Renewal of Chad Chad FNTR People's Democratic Front Chad PDF Union of Democratic Forces Chad UFD Chechnya Chechnya Lautaro Youth Movement Chile MJL Manuel Rodriguez Patriotic Front - Autonomous Chile FPMR/A Manuel Rodriguez Patriotic Front - Dissidents Chile FPMR/D Movimento de la Izquierda Revolucionaria Chile MIR United Popular Action Movement-Lautaro Chile MAPU-L Tibetan Separatists China Uighur Muslim Separatists China April 19 Movement Colombia M-19 National Liberation Army - Colombia Colombia ELN Peasant Self-Defense Group of Cordoba and Uraba Colombia ACCU Popular Liberation Army Colombia EPL Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia Colombia FARC Ricardo Franco Front Colombia FRF United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia Colombia AUC Anjouan Island separatists Comoros April 19 Movement Cuba M-19 Che Guevara Brigade Cuba Front for the Restoration of Unity and Democracy Djibouti FRUD Front for the Restoration of Unity and Democracy - Dini Djibouti FRUD Anti-Imperialist Patriotic Union Dominican Republic UPA Alfaro Lives, Damnit! Ecuador AVC People's Combatants Group Ecuador GCP Red Sun Ecuador al-Jihad Egypt Egyptian Islamic Jihad (EIF) Egypt EIF Egyptian Islamic Jihad Group Egypt Islamic Brotherhood Egypt Islamic Group Egypt IG / GAI Vanguards of Conquest Egypt Farabundo Marti National Liberation Front El Salvador FMLN Movement for the Autodetermination of the Island of Bioko Equatorial Guinea MAIB Active Al-Ittihad al-Islami Eritrea Eritrean Liberation Front Eritrea ELF Al-Ittihad al-Islami Ethiopia Action Directe France AD Corsican National Liberation Front-Historic Wing France FLNC-HW Corsican National Liberation Front-Traditional Wing France FLNC-CH Kanak Socialist National Liberation Front France FLNKS Abkhazia rebels Georgia Algetian Wolves Georgia Horsemen Georgia Internal Opposition Zviadists Georgia South Ossetian Rebels Georgia Ukrainian Self-Defence Organisation Georgia UNSO White Legion Georgia 37409 Germany Anti-Imperialist Cell Germany AIZ Red Army Faction Germany RAF Revolutionary Cells Germany RZ 37577 Greece RO-17 Anarchist Street Patrol Greece Children of November Greece Conscientious Arsonists Greece Fighting Guerrilla Formation Greece MAS Militant Guerilla Formation Greece New Group of Satanists Greece November 17 Greece Revolutionary Popular Struggle Greece ELA Revolutionary Subversive Faction - Commando Unabomber Greece Guatemalan National Revolutionary Party Guatemala URNG Ansumané Mané rebellion Guinea-Bissau Guyana National Service Guyana Guyana People's Militia Guyana Cinchonero Popular Liberation Movement Honduras MPL Comandos Operativos Especiales Honduras COES Morazanist Patriotic Front Honduras FPM Popular Revolutionary Forces Lorenzo Zelaya Honduras FRP-LZ Al Faran India Al Hadid India Al Jihad India
 
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swhitebull    RE:You want lists? i gots lists - part 2   8/30/2003 6:27:21 PM
GroupName Country Acronym Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine Israel DFLP Fatah Uprising Israel Gush Emunim Underground Israel Hamas Israel Islamic Jihad Israel Kach and Kahane Chai Israel May 15 Organization Israel Organization of the Armed Arab Struggle Israel OAAS Palestine Islamic Jihad - Shiqaqi faction Israel PIJ Palestine Liberation Front - Abu Abbas faction Israel PLF Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine Israel PFLP Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command Israel PFLP-GC Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-Special Command Israel PFLP-SC Popular Struggle Front Israel PSF Terror Against Terror Israel TNT Autonomists Italy Hammer Skinheads Italia Italy Red Brigades Italy BR Third Position Italy Aum Shinrikyo Japan Blood Revenge Corps of the Partisan Volunteer Corps for the Independence of the Japanese Race Japan Sekihotai Japanese Red Army Japan JRA Kakamaru-ha Japan Middle Core Faction, or Nucleus Japan Sane Thinkers School Japan Jordanian Muslim Brotherhood Jordan Hiz-ul Mujihadeen Kashmir Hurriyat, all Parties Kashmir Jaish-e-Muhammad Kashmir Lashkar-e-Taiba Kashmir United Jihad Council Kashmir Kurdistan Workers Party Kurdistan Independence Kyrgyzstan Kyrgyzstan Freedom Movement Kyrgyzstan Lao Liberation Army Laos LLA Lao National Liberation Movement Laos LNLM United Lao National Liberation Front Laos ULNLF Amal Lebanon Hizbollah Lebanon Islamic Resistance Lebanon Lebanese Armed Revolutionary Faction Lebanon FARL Lebanese Communist Party Lebanon LCP Lebanese Resistance Detachments Lebanon Amal Progressive Socialist Party Lebanon PSP Syrian Social National Party (SNNP) Lebanon Usbat Al Ansar Lebanon National Patriotic Front of Liberia Liberia NPFL United Front for the Liberation of Liberia Liberia ULIMO United Front for the Liberation of Liberia-Johnson Liberia ULIMO-J Fighting Islamic Group in Libya Libya FIGL Islamic Martyrs Movement Libya Islamic Movement for Change Libya Islamic Movement of Martyrs Libya Libyan Jihad Movement Libya Libyan National Democratic Movement Libya Libyan National Grouping Libya Libyan National Salvation Committee Libya National Front for the Salvation of Libya Libya Macedonian Revolutionary Organisation - Democratic Party for Macedonian National Unity Macedonia, FYROM VMRO-DPMN Unikom (ethnic Albanians) Macedonia, FYROM Azaouad Islamic-Arab Front Mali FIAA Azaouad Popular Liberation Front Mali FPLA Azaouad Popular Movement Mali MPA Azaouad Revolutionary Army Mali ARLA United Azaoud Movements and Fronts Mali MFUA Justice Army of the Defenseless People Mexico Popular Revolutionary Army Mexico EPR Zapatista National Liberation Movement Mexico EZLN Popular Front Moldova PF Republic of Transdniestr Moldova Popular Front for the Liberation of Sakiet el Hamra and Rio de Oro Morocco Polisario Mozambican National Resistance Mozambique RENAMO National Resistance Movement Mozambique MNR Arakan Rohingya Islamic Front Myanmar ARIF Kachin Democratic Army Myanmar KDA Kachin Independence Army Myanmar KIA Karen Buddhist Democracy Army Myanmar DKBA Karen National Union / Karen National Liberation Army Myanmar KNU/KNLA Karenni Army Myanmar KA Myanmar National Democratic Alliance Army Myanmar MNDAA National Democratic Alliance Army Myanmar NDAA New Democratic Army Myanmar NDA Rohingya Solidarity Organization Myanmar RSO Shan State Army, or Shan State Progress Army Myanmar SSA/SSPA Shan State Restoration Council (Mong Tai Army) Myanmar Shan United Revolutionary Army (Mong Tai Army) Myanmar SURA United Wa State Army Myanmar UWSA United People's Front of Nepal Nepal Revolutionary Armed Front Nicaragua FAR Azaouad Liberation Front Niger FLAA Organisation de la Resistance Niger ORA Revolutionary Liberation Army of North-Niger Niger ARLN Saharan Patriotic Liberation Front Niger FPLS Black September Nowhere Baluch People's Liberation Front Pakistan BPLF Baluch Students' Organization - Awami Pakistan BSO-A Harakat ul-Mujahedeen Pakistan Harakat-ul-Ansar Pakistan Jamaat ul-Fuqra Pakistan Muhajir Quami Movement - Haqiqi Faction Pakistan MQM-H Mujahedeen-e-Khalq Pakistan Muttahidda Quami Movement - Altaf Faction Pakistan MQM Nadeem Commando Pakistan Popular Front for Armed Resistance Pakistan PFAR Shi'ite Movement of Pakistan Pakistan Sipah-i-Sahaba Pakistan Pakistan SSP Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade Palestine Blue Police Palestine DFLP (Democratic Front for the Liberation of Pales Palestine Fatah Palestine Force 17 Palestine General Intelligence Force Palestine Hamas (Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya- Islamic) Palestine Islamic Jihad Palestine PA ( Palestinian Authority) Palestine PFLP Palestine PFLP-GC Palestine PLO Palestine Public Security Force Palestine Tanzim (the Organization) Palestine Bougainville Revolutionary Army Papua New Guinea BRA Shining Path Peru SL Tupac
 
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swhitebull    RE:You want lists? i gots lists - part 3   8/30/2003 6:29:19 PM
GroupName Country Acronym Islamic Tunisian Front Tunisia FIT Armenian Liberation Army Turkey ALA Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia Turkey ASALA Grey Wolves (Idealists) Turkey Justice Commandos of the Armenian Genocide Turkey JCAG Kurdistan Workers Party Turkey PKK National Liberation Front of Kurdistan Turkey ERNK People's Liberation Army of Kurdistan Turkey ARGK Revolutionary Communists' Union of Turkey Turkey TYKB Revolutionary People's Liberation Party/Front, or Revolutionary Left (formerly Devrimci Sol) Turkey DHKP/C, Dev Sol Allied Democratic Forces Uganda ADF Lord's Resistance Army Uganda LRA Uganda National Rescue Front II Uganda UNRF II West Nile Bank Front Uganda WNBF Freedom for Uighurs Uighurs Continuity Army Council United Kingdom CAC Continuity Irish Republic Army United Kingdom CIRA Irish National Liberation Army United Kingdom INLA Irish Republican Army United Kingdom IRA Loyalist Volunteer Force United Kingdom LVF Red Hand Commandos United Kingdom Ulster Defense Association United Kingdom UDA Ulster Freedom Fighters United Kingdom UFF Ulster Volunteer Force United Kingdom UVF Armed Commandos for National Liberation United States Armed Forces of National Liberation United States FALN Armed Forces of Popular Resistance United States Army of God United States Aryan Nations United States AN Guerrilla Forces of Liberation United States Los Macheteros United States Militia Groups United States Mountaineer Militia United States Organization of Volunteers for the Puerto Rican Revolution United States People's Revolutionary Commandos United States National Liberation Movement (Tupamaros) Uruguay MLN Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan Uzbekistan Red Flag Venezuela BR United Revolutionary Front Venezuela United Front for the Liberation of Oppressed Races Vietnam FULRO Popular Front for the Liberation of Sakiet el Hamra and Rio de Oro Western Sahara Polisario Yemeni Tribesmen Yemen Beli Orlovi Yugoslavia Kosovo Liberation Army Yugoslavia UÇK/KLA Kosovo Republic Armed Forces Yugoslavia FARK Liberation Army of Kosova Yugoslavia LAK National Movement for the Liberation of Kosovo Yugoslavia Srpska Dobrovoljacka Garda (SDG) Srpska Garda Yugoslavia Srpski Cetnicki Pokret Yugoslavia Black Mamba Zambia Chimwenje Zimbabwe Tehreek al-Mujihudeen Kashmir Islamic Jihad - Al-Quds Faction Palestine Azeri Islamic Party Azerbaijan AIP Iraqi Intelligence Service Iraq Izzadin el-Kassim (Hamas Military Wing) Palestine Takfir wa al-Hijra Lebanon al-Ahbash Lebanon Al Sirat Al Mustaqdim Morocco Al Takfir Wal-Hijra Morocco Jemaah Islamiya Singapore swhitebull- GRIM reading indeed
 
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capitalist72    RE:Moe selective reasoning - but not Curly,Larry, or Shemp   8/30/2003 9:20:45 PM
You went of on a tangent saying Saudi Arabia is not an Islamic state (which country is?) instead of giving me a reason why we shouldn't judge Islam by the actions of the Muslim population/states of the world today (who you yourself agree is 1.5 billion strong). "the reasonable acts conducted under Islamic rule (which seem to have all happened aeons ago, where specificity and due detail are unverifiable), but the bad ones committed by Muslims are all "un-Islamic?" That's very convenient. Instead of delving into subjective interpretations of history, it is more reasonable to view the greatness, evilness, good, or bad of a religion/culture by how its adherents act today."
 
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appleciderus    RE:Moe selective reasoning - but not Curly,Larry, or Shemp   8/30/2003 9:52:26 PM
As an aside, the title under which many posters express their thoughts is a....typo. My post of 8/20 should have been titled "More.." not "Moe". "Curly, Larry, or Shemp" was quickly added, and maintained ever since. What a riot!
 
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American Kafir    RE:Moe selective reasoning - but not Curly,Larry, or Shemp   8/31/2003 9:24:12 AM
>I hope nobody here thinks that Saddam's Iraq was Islamic, he was your buddy American Kaffir, a communist who doesn't believe in God, again islam was used as a cover.< The very idea that "Islam was used as a cover" - that the ruler of any nation could commit despicable acts and atrocities against mankind, and "camouflage" them under the primatur of Islam without a peep from the imams and sheikhs and ayatollahs and other Islamic scholars of the world is quite telling in and of itself. Saddam Hussein is damned lucky he didn't write a book called "The Satanic Verses," but instead chose to commit mass murders. And as for Saddam being my buddy because he was a "communist" and "didn't believe in God" (as if atheists can't be capitalists, and theists can't be communists) I'm sorry, you're mistaken. Saddam Hussein prayed more times a day than I have in my entire life.
 
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muslim    In response to Capitalist 72.   8/31/2003 2:34:51 PM
"You went of on a tangent saying Saudi Arabia is not an Islamic state (which country is?) instead of giving me a reason why we shouldn't judge Islam by the actions of the Muslim population/states of the world today (who you yourself agree is 1.5 billion strong)." Sorry, that was a point I truly intended to cover... Now, although Islam is either the largest or second largest (I heard claims of both) it doesn't mean we're all on the same page, there are many different sects, and many different groups working for many different goals... As the list so obviously pointed out. This alone should tell you that all these different groups and goals can't possibly be accurate representation of Islam. Not only that, as I have mentioned in my previous post, the text of the Quran, although it is preserved, can be manipulated and the meanings can be twisted to mean many different things. I don't want to go into the details of how to distinguish between incorrect interpretations and the correct ones, but there is a methodology on how to go about reaching this conclusion. And finally, the point which I made in my last post, the so-called Islamic governments are all false, and manipulated. They may not have been controlled by the west, by they were supported one time or another, like saddam for example. For me, that is the biggest sign that these leaders aren't sincere. Regradless of that, the systems these govenrments implement are inherently non-Islamic, the essence of *ALL* so-called Islamic governments isn't Islam, it's nationalism. ALL of them.. each and every single one of them. So if the governments themselves don't apply Islam correctly, how can anyone suggest that they represent Islam and Muslims? As for the MANY MANY MANY groups out there, well, most of them are actually parts of the same group, so they aren't as many as they seem... For example, if Hamas had a wing in Jordan, it would be run under a different name, so even though you would see two names, they are actually one. Hizbollah is funded by Iran, so it could count as an extension of Iran's hand and so on. I saw some groups on that list which I am familiar with, some of them aren't even militaristic in anything they do, some are actually purely political. Again, I can't go into through the list and crediting or discrediting each one, but a general way to distinguish the ones who, in this case not apply, adhere to Islam correctly would be in their goals, are they fighting for Islam? ARe they fighting their leaders to rule the country by Islam? or are they aiming for a more nationalistic goal? Almost all the groups use Islam in their name, but that means nothing without the proper actions to go along with it. In closing, I want to ask YOU a question... If you want to judge Islam by its followers or the muslim leaders or countries, then which group are you going to judge it based on? the popular ones? we all know what is popular isn't always right and vice versa... Are you going to judge Islam based on the militant groups? as I've mentioned before, I can mention some groups that are purely political, yet I am 100% sure that these groups would be on the terrorist list. Are going to judge it based on shia groups, or sunni groups? It should be obvious by now that making an accurate judgement about Islam through it's followers isn't as easy as you all make it out to be, many factors have to be shunned aside inorder for you to reach a useable conclusion. It is much easier to judge Islam through it's doctrines, it's ideas, it's books, not only because it would be a more holistic judgment in that you are not only judging the militaristic aspects, you are getting the entire thing, but you will also be able to see where so many people get their conclusions from.
 
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Landser1944    RE:In response to Capitalist 72.   8/31/2003 4:28:02 PM
After all, people that do belive in God could just wait untill they die and than watch god punishing their enemys. No need for fighting. The fighting results out of political interest that are covered with religion. The church has been the most brutal and false institution over the last 1500 years and made the pope more powerfull then emperors. I don't think it is any other with the islam.
 
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