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Subject: The Reqirement For Christian-Muslim Peace
David_Blue2002@yahoo.com.au    10/28/2001 5:47:57 AM
Sure this is a strategy website, but philosophically, the end of war is peace, so let's consider the requirement of peace in an "eternal conflict". One could not want a better expert than Professor Seyyed Hossein Nasr to explain the Muslim viewpoint fairly, and lay down the real requirement of Christian-Muslim peace. Now at time when frustration threatens to move the debate from strategic necessity to real religious hostility, it is right to consider this "eternal war" in the light of history, and the mutual hopes for all peoples for peace on the terms they desire. As witnessed by the Pope's Year 2000 apology for Christianity's dark past (which included harsh words and negative attitudes about Islam), non-Muslims have a lot to be sorry for in this conflict. Also, Muslims now face the threat or at least the thought of persecution in Western societies, so we should consider their viewpoint attentively. What does Professor Seyyed Hossein Nasr identify as the barrier to a fair and free dialogue between Christians and Muslims? What should we do to eradicate this barrier? I invite comments from all. link Seyyed Hossein Nasr is a professor of Islamic Studies at George Washington University in Washington, D.C. He has authored some 40-plus books and over 500 articles. E: And my last question to you: I have learned from you that in the realm of "atmosphere," there is conflict, but reconciliation is possible in the "Divine Stratosphere." If this is so, then only a properly trained scholar in both traditions can engage in any meaningful dialogue. What should the ordinary Muslims in the community do, who have to co-exist with their Christian neighbors? SHN: The Qur'an asserts that the Muslims must have respect for the followers of other religions. As long as Muslims believe in Tawheed (oneness of God) and their book they should not have any problem getting along with the Ahl al-Kitab (People of the Book). This term should be understood in a larger context. This, in my opinion, includes, besides Jews and Christians, all the primordial and orthodox religious traditions, such as Confucianism and Hinduism. However, it is very important to know that at the practical level, things are not that simple for Islam and Christianity. One of these religions, Western Christianity, and on a smaller scale Judaism in Israel, is wed to a tremendous economic and military power structure. This was not a question in the Middle Ages, when two traditional civilizations based on God fought against each other's conception of God. Their armies were fairly even, and they respected each other in the battlefield. It is not like this today. The disparity in power prevents Muslims and Christians sitting together for a fair and free dialogue. Just take [some recent] examples: East Timor and Chechnya both were colonies. East Timor was colonized by the Portuguese some 500 years ago, and Chechnya fairly recently, about 150 to 200 years ago. In the case of East Timor, whose population of about half a million is Catholic, a big international campaign took place, which led to its independence. In the case of Chechnya, on the other hand, where a massive slaughter of Muslims took place, the very Western countries that so often speak about human rights, self-determination, and democracy sit idly by and watch the massacre. There is a strong push into the Muslim world that is based on money and the power of missionaries. There is a significant amount of money being spent in Indonesia and Pakistan in trying to convert people to Christianity. Muslims have no choice but to be awaken and have a sense of vigilance. To be friends is good, but Muslims must not let their guard down as far as religion is concerned.
 
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SGTObvious    I don't know, apple, there might still be hope.   8/19/2003 9:45:13 AM
Did Christianity really have to lose all its basic tenets to become acceptable to modern ethics? I'm not doubting you, I'm just wondering, if a few points were removed from Islam, for example, the idea that Islam should be an all-encompassing, Earthly government, perhaps it would still be acceptable and still be islamic? On the other hand, if you stripped islam of every last objectionable belief, I wonder if all you'd have left would be Judaism with one extra prophet. Islam would be to Judaism what Mormonism is to Christianity!
 
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appleciderus    There is no hope   8/19/2003 2:24:56 PM
The original tenants of Christianity were corrupted, and then changed to abide with modern ethics. A volatile statement, with no intention of beginning another thread. The point is, Christianity began as a peaceful, non-violent religion. islam originated as a vicious slayer and enslaver of humanity. Christianity has changed numerous times over the millennium. islam has not.
 
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American Kafir    RE:Muslim Spain   8/19/2003 6:03:39 PM
A better question would be why it is that when Muslims want to point to a historical example of a "Islamic utopia" its always a place they conquered with military force?
 
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muslim    RE:Muslim Spain   8/20/2003 7:39:55 AM
before I start, I want to make sure this discussion doesn't turn into one about the tenants of Islam, because I've had many of those discussions on this board, and they just go on and on and on without reaching to any point... Now, let me clearify the situation during the periods when Spain and Jerusalem were ruled by an Islamic state, just in case you guys forgot... it was a time when europe was still in it's dark ages, and it was a time when europe was in some ways jealous of the success Islam had reached. Europeans in fact considered Muslims amongst, if not the biggest, of it's enemies. The reason why I bring this up is because you guys say that Islamic historians weren't objective, yet you seem to believe that european historians (remember, the ones who were writing about their enemies) were objective, and therefore, credible. I want to make a point that that is not correct, just a case in recent history: Britain has just been exposed (or at the very least, accused) of deliberatly manipulating, changing, and in some cases, adding information in relations to the war against Iraq to make it seem "sexier" to the public. The question is, if they are willing to d that today, what makes you think they weren't then? or were the Europeans too afraid of lying? who in Europe had the power to show that the government had lied to the people? The fact of the matter is that the political structure in Europe had FAR less checks and balances than america or britain has today, so if the king of France for example wanted to wage a war against Muslilms, only his aides and advisors would know the truth of the informations he takes to the public... So you can CLAIM that Islamic Historians weren't objective, but you can't possible say that the European historians were objective, they had even more to benefit from lying to their people. Regardless of the accuracy of the history of that period, there are physical evidences that show that Christians, for example, were allowed to freely practice their religion, the many churches still standing in old jerusalem are witnesses to that. Or how about the fact that many of who today are known as arabs aren't of arab decent? you could say they were forced to adopt arab culture, maybe... But if they were forced to become culturaly arab and religiously Muslim, then how come we still have MANY arab christians AND jews in the middle east? These are things that cannot be denied, they are not based on history written by anyone, these are like historical fossils that speak for themselves... and one more thing, when did I EVER mention that Spain and Jerusalem were utopias? ofcourse there were problems, no society is without some, but the fact that in neither case did the christians and jews depart to another country, engage in constant rebellions, or ask for help from other countries is a proof in itself that they were happy with their life, after all, no one was ever forced to stay. The point I'm trying to bring isn't as much the greatness of the situations then as it is the greatness of Islam to allow such situations to exist. If there were problems that existed there, it wasn't because of Islam, it was because of the implimentation. Just like the problems today aren't caused by Islam, they are created by outside factors, Islam is just used as a shield by both sides, Muslim leaders are manipulating Islam to show to their people that their leadership is legit, and Western leaders are manipulating Islam to make their attacks on the middle east "sexier", even if they are doing so indirectly, it is being done. I will say it, I do believe, in fact I am absolutely convinced, that Islam is the best system out there, whether as a political one, or a social, Islam encompases all fields and no part can be separated from the other, just like no human can live the same way when their arm is cut off, Islam can't be implemented correctly if only bits and pieces are selectively chosen to be implemented (Saudi Arabia and Iran), and this is what we muslims need to realize, it makes no difference whether YOU do or not, but for us muslims, it means the difference between heaven and hell. You see, if you have 1.5 billion (give or take a point or two) in general agreement on the basic tenants of not only the religion itself, like we are today, but also of the politcal system included in the religion, the result will a nation with great power and great responsibility for the world, and just as in the past we have relieved people of their oppresive governments, we can do so again. From day one, the prophet and his companions knew that Islam wasn't designed to stay in arabia, Islam wasn't sent to just the arabs, they knew that it was their responsibility to take this message to the world, acceptance or denial is left to the people, but everyone must make that choice, and it is the responsibility of the muslims to make sure that Islam is presented to them, that's all, and in the mean time, it i
 
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SGTObvious    RE:Muslim Spain, Just for the record, Muslim   8/20/2003 7:48:35 AM
Muslim: "It was there that people lived in this utopia we all dream of today... " Muslim again: "and one more thing, when did I EVER mention that Spain and Jerusalem were utopias?" I need say nothing more on that.
 
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SGTObvious    RE:Muslim Spain   8/20/2003 8:10:06 AM
Let's do a little analysis: "And Sgt, Spain wasn't invaded the same way Iraq was a few months ago..." You are right. When Muslims attack, they attack to conquer. Such was Spain. It took the Spanish Resistance centuries to throw the invaders out. " the government was replaced, the people weren't being sent to death, the streets were certainly free of looting and the such... The Muslims did all the looting, and killed those who opposed them. "As for the 48 executed you refered to, I must ask you to be a bit more specific so that I could do a little research before replying, a couple of sources would be very helpful, even though I could already think of several explanations." Source: The writings of St. Eulogus. " As for the destruction of Cordova, last I checked, it was still standing even when the inquisition occured, even today;" So is Hiroshima and Dresden. Cities get rebuilt. Even Bagdad was wiped out by the Mongols. " as for it's library, I'm wasn't aware it was destroyed," Of course not. Muslims do not speak of these things. It's embarrassing. It was destroyed in 1013 by Berbers- MUSLIMS- who were mad at the fact that they were being treated as second class by their fellow muslims, the Arabs. OF course, by this time, the "Utopia" was a mass of internal fighting.
 
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American Kafir    RE:Muslim Spain   8/20/2003 8:11:47 AM
>As for you AK, I don't feel like getting into the same arguments as before, it's just a waste of time, so if you don't have anything NEW and completely unrelated to add, don't expect to comment on it.< Or what, you'll pour molten lead in my ears? It's nice to see your return to these boards, Muslim. I enjoyed our previous debates and look forward to more.
 
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appleciderus    Moe selective reasoning   8/20/2003 8:41:22 AM
I am reminded of an earlier conversation where a muslim offered the fact that Christians were free to practice their religion in the privacy of their homes as proof of religious freedom in Saudi Arabia. Using the example of the British press examining whether their government ?sexed? up reports is self-accusatory. Could such a thing happen in any contemporary islamic country today? No civilization I know of has examined its roots and history as critically as Western Civilization has. Adaptation and freedom have been the result. Based on the comments made here today by ?muslim?, I rest my case.
 
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Condor Legion    RE:Moe selective reasoning - but not Curly,Larry, or Shemp   8/20/2003 8:42:19 PM
How many Jews currently live in the Jewish Quarter of Damascus, Syria? How many in the Jewish Quarter of Baghdad? How many Jews are left in ALL of Iran and Afghanistan? How many Jews remain in any nation holding a Muslim majority? Genocide is a big word to throw around, too bad so few recognize it even when they can smell the stink of death right under their very noses. I DIDN'T COME HERE TO TAKE PRISONERS, CL
 
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muslim    RE:Muslim Spain, Just for the record, Muslim   8/21/2003 1:43:17 AM
correct me if I spelt this wrong: Touchet... I must've got caught up in what I was saying I didn't really think that one through... Just for the record, I don't think Spain under Islamic rule was an utopia.
 
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