why are helicopters such death traps

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fred79 RE:why are helicopters such death traps 3/23/2003 9:01:09 PM

i really do want to know are helicopter manuvers inherantly very dangerous. why can't we develope some system to stop helicopter mid air impacts. we have seen quiet a few of them in that last few years. I was not trying to start some kind of osprey rant just making a heated comment.

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macawman RE:why are helicopters such death traps 3/23/2003 11:32:00 PM

Fred: Here is a report that offers some insight to your question. Helicopter Losses on the Modern Battlefield By Ralph Omholt The crash of a U.S. Marine CH-46E Sea Knight helicopter in northern Kuwait early on March 21, 2003, not only caused the first allied fatalities of Operation Iraqi Liberation. It also illuminated a recurring vulnerability in that crucial element of U.S. military aviation. Our experience in both Operation Desert Storm in 1991 and Afghanistan today is that non-combat losses are radically higher than combat-related losses. Of particular note is the common denominator of the crashes in the Afghan and Iraqi environments. The most common cause falls into the category of ?hard landings,? which is what eyewitness observers described in the Sea Knight crash that killed 12 British troops and the four-man aircrew. By all appearances, these crashes are occurring in poorly prepped landing areas, which should be presumed to be essentially unsafe. Yet, given the regular crashes, there is little indication that the safety needs are being reliably dealt with. The act of repositioning a helicopter to an otherwise convenient fueling point can be high-risk. The lesson struck home again two days later when two British helicopters collided over the Persian Gulf early this morning, with initial reports that six British and one American onboard had perished. For the most part, the hard landings are a function of landing operations during low visibility conditions, either environmental, or ?night-vision goggle (NVG) operations.? The underlying issue is often a matter of piloting skill and judgment, versus a mechanical flaw. Knowledge, skill, experience and judgment are the first level of coping arenas. Just as a tank commander would not wildly guess the depth of a stream before attempting to cross it, a helicopter pilot operating in such conditions as night flight or in a sandstorm needs reasonable assurance that he has a high degree of success. Hence, an intended landing zone needs to be verified as being safe ? with at least one alternative available. No pilot should accept a mission based on hopeful thinking, versus known and reasonable safety factors. Yet, many military commanders seem to give lip service to that requirement. For example, the crashes where the crewmen were using night vision goggles (NVG) demonstrate a nearly unacceptable risk for our expensive helicopters, commonly carrying the finest troops in the U.S. military. The loss of only one or two helicopters can be a disastrous loss, as the 1993 ?Black Hawk Down incident at Mogadishu indicates. One of the major background causes of this problem is that a high degree of flight training is conducted in simulators, which do not accurately replicate the flight experience, particularly landings. Hence, there is an inherent proficiency gap in this vital flight evolution. Expensive and limited ?blade time? diminishes the real-world proficiency and experience factors. Worse, the ?training missions? often occur under highly controlled conditions, where realistic variables are uncommon.

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fred79 RE:why are helicopters such death traps 3/24/2003 11:29:00 AM

wow that was a gerat article summing up all the problem i was asking about thank! i wonder then why we don't use some type of of equiptment to assist in landing in un known areas. also i think that if blade time would be help full would blade time in a cheaper aircraft be helpfull. there are manny cheap helicopter that could be used to practice landing with night vision. we could even designe some thing that would be very repairable, crash with standing and safe that difficult manuvers could be practiced. could this also show that we maybe should paradrop troops to take,hold and develope a air field to land helicopters. maybe a special force could be developed to airdrop and mark a landing zone to assist the helicopter pilots rather expecting the pilot to find his landing zone. alternatively we could develope some way to deploy troops with out landing? hopefully some one with helicopter experience could join this and let us know what is teh operating procedure already.

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macawman RE:why are helicopters such death traps 3/24/2003 6:52:15 PM

One of the issues this article did not cover is the very young age of most of these pilots. Some are just out of high school. You do not need a college degree to fly an Army chopper. There is an old expression that fits: There are old pilots and bold pilots, but there are no OLD BOLD pilots.

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Sam RE:why are helicopters such death traps 3/25/2003 8:44:29 PM

I must disagree with a few assertions in this article. The Marine pilots that crashed were members of the 15th MEU So prior to deployment to the PG they had 6 months of training to increase their proficency in NVG ops, LHA/LHD landings (among other things). The pilots (and all the men and women)on a MEU (SOC) are at the peak of training when they deploy. And the pilots fly almost daily during transPac. I don't want to start one of those us v them but for marines very little time is spent on a simulator. The rotary side of the house is streched too thin. I've heard a neighbor complain of getting too much stich time. The old saying is "46s crash at sea and 53s crash on land." This is because a 46 is way underpowered and usually crash while trying to land on a ship deck or when they get out of ground effect during taking off. Something that a 53 will power out of with ease. The 46 was originally rated for 24 combat equipped troops. Now you need a waiver for over 12. For the record. Marine pilots are college grads and all become fixed wing aviators (basic flight school) before transitioning to helos.

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fred79 RE:why are helicopters such death traps 3/26/2003 12:46:37 PM

I can say after watching the film of that 46 crash on this site, that it looks like they are underpowered. it looked like the pilot didn't have enough power to hold him self after he missed the ship of course if he had come in slower maybe that would have been different.

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Spent Case RE:why are helicopters such death traps 3/28/2003 11:56:12 AM

Actually, I believe warrent officers need at least an associates degree. I may be wrong, but I've heard this...

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macawman Warrant Officer promotion requires a degree 3/28/2003 12:33:47 PM

The current standard is that in order to make W3 a W2 needs an associate degree. The policy now or pending is that W3s require a bachelors degree to make W4.

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Spent Case RE:Warrant Officer promotion requires a degree 3/28/2003 1:42:55 PM

Macawman, Thanks for the clarificaton... I was half right.

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Thomas RE:why are helicopters such death traps 5/7/2003 7:21:58 AM

There are several explanations to that question: 1.As time goes on you put more equipment on board, which increases weight. 2. Helicopters tend to be used in "hot and high" enviroments. This means reduced air density: a. The "grip" of the rotor blades is reduced. b. Air mass-flow through the engine is reduced, which leads to reduced engine performance. 3. Helicopters in military service tend to be old, and there is an engine performance detoriation over time, not much but some. 4. Helicopters are the perfect machines for shaking things apart - thus very maintainence demanding - which in a war situation might be a secondary consideration. 5. With normal aircraft: Increased speed means increased lift. With helicopter just the opposite: a. The rotor provides both lift and thrust - the faster You go the less lift. b. Forward speed reduces possible rotaions pr. min for the rotor, as the forwardmoving blade hits the soundbarrier. The Royal Danish Navy has used the Lynx in the arctic - the very cold air and sea-level condition must have been the reason they could operate in spite of being short on "huff" and overweight.

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