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Subject:
RE:Carrier Duel: Charles de Gaul vs Kuznetsov
Galrahn
3/22/2006 2:04:00 AM
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| For the first time in awhile, I find gf's lack of knowledge somewhat striking, but I think some of it is time sensitive since this thread is old.
Also I find understanding of Russian Naval tactics to be very weak per the explainations regarding how the Russian Navy would approach this type of scenario.
Keep in mind, following the November 2004 exercise, Putin was pissed. Both the Petr Velikiy and the Admiral Kuznetsov were sent into the yard for repairs, and Putin himself was aboard in September 2005 (about the same time this thread was started actually) when the Admiral Kuznetsov went back to sea. On that deployment, both ships did well, but 1 pilot did crash a Su-33 due to what is called an airfinisher problem.
Second, if major combat actions were to happen, both carriers have surge capacity for more aircraft, so you have to determine what would be available.
The Charles de Gaulle is deployed right now with only 14 Super-Etendard and 8 Rafales, I think to shape the debate, we have to assume surge. Late last year, after the exercises the Kuznetsov air wing was announced. I am guessing at the CDG air wing, but if my sources are right the planes are operational.
Charles de Gaulle
12 Rafale
18 Super-Etendard
8 Dauphin's
2 E-2C
Admiral Kuznetsov
20 Su-33
2 KA-31LD Helix
18 KA-27PLO Helix
2 KA-27S Helix
I think you have to factor in escorts as well. The French Navy deploys 1 SSN with the CdG every deployment. The Russians on the other hand deploy 1 SSN and 1 SSGN with the Kuznetsov, but additionally deploy 1 SSN and 1 SSGN with the Petr Velikiy, so the Russian Carrier Task Force would have considerably more submarines.
On the other hand, the French would likely deploy more surface ships per doctrine. THe CdG task force for example is basically 4 destroyers, but additionally 2 FFGs are deployed in picket roles, because as GF pointed out, the French Navy have far superior C&C than the Russian Navy. Additionally you could expect a 2nd SSN with the FFG screen.
French Forces:
Charles de Gaulle CVN
Cassard Class DDG
F67 class DD
F70 class DD
F70 class DD
La Fayette class FFG
La Fayette class FFG
Rubis class SSN
Rubis class SSN
Russian Forces:
Admiral Kuznetsov CV
Petr Velikiy BCGN
Admiral Chabanenko DDG (Udaloy)
Admiral Levchenko DDG (Udaloy
Admiral Ushakov DDG (Sovremenny)
Smolensk (SSGN Oscar II)
Tomsk (SSGN Oscar II)
Gepard (SSN Akula)
Leopard (SSN Akula)
I think it is a good fight. Questions people should ask is, how far out do you believe the CdG is going to be when it launches airstrikes? That is an important question, because you don't want to give up your position. I don't understand why no one pointed out the obvious. Given the ships listed, the Kuznetsov alone has more Anti-Air missiles than the entire French fleet.
I think that is an important detail. The Kuznetsov carries 336 anti-air missiles and 28 anti-ship missiles. THe surface ships for France listed only carry 48 Exocet missiles combined, which means the Kuznetsov alone carries more than half of the total French fleet. Once you add in the rest of the escorts, not to mention the SSGNs it can get ugly.
I think the scenario gives the Russian Navy every advantage in equipment, but the fact is, the French have every advantage in training and have the right stand off and detection capability to overcome that advantage.
If you add up the tonage, it isn't even close.
I also agree with DA, the Horizon class replacing the Cassard as the AAW ship would make a huge impact on this scenario.
If you are the French, how far out do you deploy your La Fayette's for screen? If you are the Russians how far out do you deploy your subs? If you are the French, do you use your subs to strike enemy ships or subs? If you think about it, these are tough questions with complicated answers. The French have limited helicopters, but the Russians would have enormous helicopter ASW screens.
Not to mention, Russian doctrine operating submarines with surface ships is doctrine that goes back decades, French doctrine using subs with a surface fleet, like the rest of the west including the US, is only about a decade old.
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