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Subject: Carrier Duel: Charles de Gaul vs Kuznetsov --Opinions Please
DarthAmerica    8/9/2005 12:19:53 AM
Which is better at projecting power?

Which is more effective at Air to Ground, Anti-Ship, Air Superiority?

Which has the most balanced Airwing?

Which has the best Fighter?

Which is more effective as a part of its typical battle group configuration.

Which has had the most operational success?

Which Carrier Battle Group would be most likely to win a meeting engagement in the Open Ocean?


As I said. I am interested in opinions so feel free to share. But be kind enough to actually give an opinion. Opinions should be supported by some evidence otherwise its bias. In all considerations be sure to include all the available support assets typically available to High Value Assets such as these.
 
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Galrahn    RE:Carrier Duel: Charles de Gaul vs Kuznetsov    3/22/2006 5:54:20 PM
Just a correction, Rafale has twice the range of Super-Et not the reverse. Rafale is able to escort AND refuel a Super-Et strike. Can someone else confirm this, I am almost certain that is incorrect. I thought the Rafale range is around 1800km and the Super Etendard range is about 3400km. But I know Rafale can be refueled in flight.
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:Carrier Duel: Charles de Gaul vs Kuznetsov    3/22/2006 7:55:57 PM
Galrahn, Factor in the Bear(per doctrine) and whatever space assets the Russians have left for increased SA and this is looking very bad for the CdG considering the firepower overmatch. Simply forget about it if the Tu-22M is in range to assist.
 
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Bluewings    RE:Carrier Duel: Charles de Gaul vs Kuznetsov    3/22/2006 8:13:29 PM
Super Etendard range on Anti-Shipping mission : 860km . Cheers .
 
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Bluewings    RE:Carrier Duel: Charles de Gaul vs Kuznetsov    3/22/2006 9:12:14 PM
Ok , I 've done my homework . First , if the French Fleet stay at 500km+ from the Russians , there is nothing that the Ruskies can do . They are in the blind . On the other hand , we can easily launch Anti-Ship Missions from that distance . Basically , is the Russian fleet able to stop few volleys of Exocets ? From my infos on the Russian Anti anti-ship missiles , they probably can with a moderate to good chance of success . I don 't know how to rate their real capability mind . It seems to me that few Exocets should ~I say should~ be able to pass through . I am talking about S.Etendard Exocets of course . Then , there is the Rubis menace . Here , no dice for the Russians . Their ASW is not good enough BY MILES to even be aware of the attack . Or Rubis uses the ECAN L5 Mod 3 torpedo launched at 9km , or the ECAN F17 Mod 2 launched at 20km from 350m deep . Cheers .
 
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Galrahn    RE:Carrier Duel: Charles de Gaul vs Kuznetsov    3/23/2006 2:12:25 PM
I am still trying to figure out how the Rubis gets through all that active sonar activity. No nation in the world can put more ASW assets from one task force in a screen than the Russians, your talking 26 avaiable ASW helicopters, much less 2 ASW destroyers and 2 Akula's, which the US Navy considers on par or better than the baseline 688 class. Am I missing something here? My other problem is, the Super Etendard has to get through 180+ km of the CAP and an additional 30km of SAM range before getting into maximum fire range of the Exocet. Max range for just about any ASM has never been very accurate, except in testing against stationary targets. Why would this be considered an effective tactic? I don't think a French air based ASM strike would be effective at all unless the CAP is taken down first. Think about it, for the missiles to be effective, you are talking very low altitude strike. At low altitude, the CAP will blow S Etendards out of the sky easily. If your going to fight through the CAP, your talking high altitude, and that will leave you open to SAM range well before you get to ASM range. If the Rubis go straight after the ships, what is going to stop the Oscar IIs? If an Oscar II ever gets within range of the task force well enough to track it, game over, and the French better not let a bear get a good fix, or that will be a game ender too considering considering the SS-N-19 Shipwreck has a range over 600 km, with 24 on each Oscar, and several on the surface ships. I still think the French would win, but I don't think people are taking a realistic look at the Russian capability, nor do people appear to understand Russian Naval tactics. Keep in mind, Su-33 CAP with at least 12 helicopters using dipping sonars in active mode, plus at least 1 towed array at all times from 2 destroyers doing sprint-drift, and that doesn't include 2 SSNs and SSGNs that can be used as either offensive or defensive assets. Rubis can only fire at max 4 ASMs at a time, and needs to be within 9.5km to fire torpedos at max range. I also think the Russians stack up well against the Exocet, because the cold war era ships are actually designed to defend against them. I think the biggest problem with this scenario is, 1 hit by an Exocet is unlikely to sink any Russian ship, while 1 shipwreck is likely to sink any French ship except the CdG. I don't think a shipwreck would be able to hit a La Fayette at long range though, I think the stealth+chaff from the Matra system would make the La Fayette a very difficult ship to hit at long range for the Russians, if not impossible, as long as it didn't go active.
 
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Bluewings    RE:Carrier Duel: Charles de Gaul vs Kuznetsov    3/23/2006 3:21:15 PM
"I am still trying to figure out how the Rubis gets through all that active sonar activity. No nation in the world can put more ASW assets from one task force in a screen than the Russians" There are two kind of boats : Subs and targets . Everytime a Surface Force had to drill against Subs , they 've been sank . Even the USN . There is no doubts whatsoever , the Rubis would sink the Russians . By the way , Rubis can fire torps at up to 20km away . The Klinok air defence missile system on the Kuz has a range of 12 to 15 km . The Shtil surface-to-air missile systems on the Sovremenny has a range of 25km . Now , if you think the Russians can have enough SU in the air to stop 10 Rafales screening for 12 S. Etendards , you 're mistaking . The first Russian Ship in range of the Exocets ~even if it 's not the Kuz~ will have to deal with 24 Exocets coming its way . Then we go back , re-arm and start again . French are not using the Rubis for an Exocet attack on the Russian fleet , but for a direct Torpido attack , then disapear in the deep . Cheers .
 
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