Carrier Duel: Charles de Gaul vs Kuznetsov --Opinions Please

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Francois Errata 8/10/2005 1:26:28 AM

Please read : So you will have MORE flying and combat ready assets if you have 25 Rafales then 70 Sukhois.

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EW3 RE:Why the French? Answer for gf0012-aust 8/10/2005 1:54:43 AM

Can't speak to the last 20 years of Soviet/Russian strategy, but it used to be that they had an offense only mentality. If the spam hit the fan they were to flood the North Atlantic with subs and hope that some made it to a place where they could isolate Europe from the US while their land forces moved west. ASW for them would have had less ROI than just building another 20 cheap Julliet class subs armed with SSN-3s. I suspect they appreciated how close Germany came to making the UK fold in WWII with their sub force. But on the flip side, that is why a Seawolf has the ability to carry 50 Mk-48s and we planned to build 29 of them. That's a lot of missing Julliet class subs.

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boris the romanian RE:Carrier Duel: Charles de Gaul vs Kuznetsov --Opinions Please - Phaid 8/10/2005 6:26:07 AM

"The SU-33 has no maritime search capabilities" The Su-33 has a rudimentary, but very useful search mode for its radar. Like the Su-27, it can generate a radar picture of terrain features (or ships) in the single CRT display. This picture can then be manually "centered" by the pilot and the radar slaved much like in Soviet BVR mode for N-001 and Sapfir-23 (or N-019's "Pursuit Mode"). The search mode was originally intended as a nav-aid for IA-PVO Su-27s operating over Siberia, but it would work just as well against a French carrier. Given that even N-001 can detect and track the reflections of a large feature like an airfield from well over 150km away, I fail to see how the Russian air wing would not be able to find a very large target like a CVN. IIRC, the Kh-31A behaves much like an R-27R when it comes to the initial designation and launch phase, except that it doesn't need support once it goes to inertial phase. I don't know where you get this idea that the Su-27K can't fire Kh-31s. It can even fire Kh-41s, but the weight of the missile severly handicaps the Flanker's fuel load due to the carrier's peculiar STOBAR limitations, thus greatly limiting that missile's usefulness as a carrier aircraft's AShM of choice. Mind you, the Su-27K can fly with 8000kg of fuel, four Kh-31As, two R-27ERs and four R-73A/E (or two Sorbtsyia and two Archer), making for a useful anti-shipping aircraft. And my money's on the Kh-31 vs. the Exocet.

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Phaid RE:Carrier Duel: Charles de Gaul vs Kuznetsov --Opinions Please - Phaid 8/10/2005 11:14:25 AM

Well... The N-001 may be able to find gross terrain features on land for navigation, but a mountain or a 5,000 foot runway and its hangars on flat ground is a far cry from a moving ship surrounded by sea clutter. All accounts I've ever seen of SU-27K / SU-33's with Kh-31 is that it's a nice display option but they have no way to target them, as their avionics fit is the same as the SU-27 Flanker B. Same thing with the Kh-41 mockup seen at static displays. The idea of a (current, existing, flying) SU-33 using Kh-31s against shipping is optimistic at best. I've read about the "SU-33 Upgrade" which would actually be able to use Kh-31s and possibly even Kh-41s but that was never funded AFAIK. Most likely the display of these missiles alongside SU-33s is an attempt to generate interest in exporting an upgraded version with full air to surface capability. In any case, using Kh-41s is unlikely; the SU-33 already cannot take off from the Kuznetsov with a full fuel load no matter what its loadout, much less with a four and a half ton missile.

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DarthAmerica RE:Why the French? Answer for gf0012-aust 8/10/2005 1:49:36 PM

"So if you give the Russians the land based a/c, and say they can take off, and their weapons are working, and they don't get lost because sats are not working, so you have to give me Aster-30 and Horizons. Deal?" -- Francois --LOL no deal this is a 2005 come as you are fight Better let the Rubis handle this and hope it does before the Bears find you and give targeting solution to the Backfires, Sukhois and Kirov!

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TDidier RE:Why the French? Answer for gf0012-aust 8/10/2005 3:36:58 PM

From DarthxxX"--LOL no deal this is a 2005 come as you are fight Better let the Rubis handle this and hope it does before the Bears find you and give targeting solution to the Backfires, Sukhois and Kirov!" Here is the Forbin (first Horizon) in March of this year. Planned to enter in servicze in March 2006, able for war service before this date, probably before the end of 2005: link

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DarthAmerica RE:Why the French? Answer for - TDidier 8/10/2005 6:17:25 PM

Good. But 1 Horizon vs several dozen ASMs? Oh and without Aster 30s? Good Luck. Maybe if you can hold out til 2006-2007 if the Russians are kind enough to allow it...;) link link Also with just one Horizon achieving saturation is a non issue.

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Francois CdG versus Kuz - DarthA 8/10/2005 8:19:45 PM

Ok, so you keep your Sukhois that cna't take off with more then 2 AAM, your loads of Tu-22s that cant take off because your conscripts left the parts outside on the snow for 2 months and they are roasted, your satellite feeding that is out of service, your missiles that tend to explose before leaving the racks, and I go on the CdG. I have no problem LOL I mean, if we keep the game as of todays readiness level, or go on in the future, national pride put beside, Kuz has no single chance at it! But I am more worried about the brits here... in the actual configuration, same scenario.

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DarthAmerica RE:CdG versus Kuz -Francois 8/10/2005 8:51:51 PM

Francois, lol thats a very French point of view. But understandable. Hey maybe there will be no fight when the CdG screws come off in port and the JP-8 is not enough to the FN planes! Seriously though your only chance is to use SSNs. The same for the British. And in both cases that would probably work. As would the Russian Naval Airforce missile bombardment vs Britain and France. So in the end all Russian, French and British Carriers are destroyed one way or the other and all parties are insufficiently prepared to counter the other OPFORs strengths.

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Francois RE:CdG versus Kuz - DarthA 8/10/2005 9:34:11 PM

Well, you have the point: Nobody is safe of mech probs. Not even USoA. For the fule prob, I guess you are talking of what happened lately. Well, read it again, you seem to have missed something. It is fashion of mass-media to tell BS. Anyway, not my point. I never said it would be easy. But all the odds are on the french side. It is a mixte of in-depth space management and sit awareness. The russians just don't have it. But again, Invincible did "sink" several US CVs in exercices, coming deep in the defence rings of the CVSG, as well as the CdG in several exercices. With tremedous odds in the US side! But each time, the fleet cdr didn't play as per the rules, but by cunning strategy/tactic. And that is what is winning battles. So, yes, if the russian CDR is smarter and luckier, he may just win.

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