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Subject: Carrier Duel: Charles de Gaul vs Kuznetsov --Opinions Please
DarthAmerica    8/9/2005 12:19:53 AM
Which is better at projecting power?

Which is more effective at Air to Ground, Anti-Ship, Air Superiority?

Which has the most balanced Airwing?

Which has the best Fighter?

Which is more effective as a part of its typical battle group configuration.

Which has had the most operational success?

Which Carrier Battle Group would be most likely to win a meeting engagement in the Open Ocean?


As I said. I am interested in opinions so feel free to share. But be kind enough to actually give an opinion. Opinions should be supported by some evidence otherwise its bias. In all considerations be sure to include all the available support assets typically available to High Value Assets such as these.
 
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DropBear    RE:Carrier Duel: Charles de Gaul vs Kuznetsov --Opinions Please   8/9/2005 12:33:12 AM
...Which one can be deployed and still afford to keep up the ongoing repayments? Just be general here... I think CDG is the better carrier design and as it has deployed to Afghanistan for Op Herakles and then some, my money is on it. I think a Rafale launched by cat has greater warload than the skijumpski Flanker/Fulcrum derivatives. P.S. On www.patricksaviation.com, there is a funny video of Kuznetsov landing an SU-25 Frogfoot. Doesn't go to plan as the Froggy bounces onto nose gear...SNAP! I'm not one of the perennial French bashers and I think they make damn fine ships, planes etc and their crews are top notch. I think the Lafayette Frigate that supports it is as good a design as any, especially compared to Anzac/Meko or OHP classes. I think the Kuz has only deployed twice (???), so not sure whether the shakedown cruises are indicative of standard warfighting sqn sizes etc. The CDG has Rafale, Super Etendard, Hawkeye and Dauphin deployed. I can't speak for French subs, but they are probably line ball with Russian types (???).
 
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gf0012-aust    RE:Carrier Duel: Charles de Gaul vs Kuznetsov --Opinions Please   8/9/2005 12:43:04 AM
last major fleet exercise for the russians last year resulted in 3/4 fleet coming back at reduced speed due to engine problems for the lead ships, plus they stacked a few of their aircraft in traps and launches. prior to that they had last conducted live traps and launches 10 years prev. one of the victims was their most senior carrier borne pilot. so for training, currency, vessel persistence and capability I'd go the french. notionally, on paper only, the russian is better at anti-shipping.
 
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VelocityVector    RE:Carrier Duel: Charles de Gaul vs Kuznetsov --Opinions Please   8/9/2005 1:01:18 AM
? last major fleet exercise for the [French recently] resulted in entire French air arm coming back [to a New Jersey land base] due to [inability to achieve technical proficiency their American teachers are expected to accomplish de minimis]. Russia can wipe its ass with France. Notionally or otherwise, period. v^2
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:Carrier Duel: Charles de Gaul vs Kuznetsov --Opinions Please   8/9/2005 1:01:21 AM
Sounds pretty resonable to me. My opinion is that the Kuz group is stronger for ASuW/ASW. Kuz may even be too tough a nut to crack operating defensively considering the SU-33 and SA-N-6. So for defensive AAW the Kuz group is slightly below CdG. But for offensive operations the CdG/Rafale combo is a lot better than the Kuz/SU-33 due to the fact that the Cat launched Rafales can carry more firepower for air to ground power projection operations! But this is somewhat mitigated by the fact that the Rafales are not fully capable IIRC of delivering a2g ordinance although I'm sure the French are working hard to remedy this! Also the French have high flying AWACs aircraft which is no small advantage. But if the strike is anti-ship in nature. I would imagine SS-N-19/Moskit could deal powerful blows!
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:Carrier Duel: Charles de Gaul vs Kuznetsov --Opinions Please   8/9/2005 1:04:54 AM
I wonder how many SSNs deploy with each CBG? I would imagine A Rubis or Victor could complicate things tremendously. Well that is if the Victor doesnt break down!
 
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gf0012-aust    RE:Carrier Duel: Charles de Gaul vs Kuznetsov --Opinions Please - V2   8/9/2005 1:31:29 AM
if you're talking about a soviet CBG, then yes, but at the moment, some 80%+ of the Russian penanted fleet is considered unseaworthy or inop. The Russians didn't last 7days on their last exercise, in fact the Carrier broke down on the way out, and the nuke powered battle cruiser was reduced to 1/3 of normal station speed. if the Russians managed to get their anti-shiiping options off, then the French would be in trouble, but I'd still argue that based on their performance on Op Herakles they're not to be sneezed at. French nuke submarines are substantially better acoustically than their russian counterparts. - but the French don't have an equivalency against a Sovremneny either. I don't see it as cut and dried at all - but I also don't see it as a cake walk.
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:Carrier Duel: Charles de Gaul vs Kuznetsov --Opinions Please - gf0012   8/9/2005 1:49:06 AM
The problem I see for the French is that they have to get in range of the Russian ASMs to even attempt a saturation attack. And SA-N-6 and other SAMs could attrit that. While on the French side, the Aster 30 IIRC is not operational which puts those ASMs dangerously close IMO. But the French SSN could possibly get the Kuz or other vessel based on what I gather from gf. However I read that ASW is a primary role of a Kuz Group. So I would think they may be quite prepared for that as well. Or as prepared as one could be. The Russians on the other hand seem limited in their ability to strike land targets and I dont like the SA comparison for Russia with the French having a high flying AWACs and IIRC the Rafale posesing air to air refueling capability. If the Rafale RCS/ECM is as good as is bragged about here they could put an exocet or two into the Kuz group and get away with it.
 
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gf0012-aust    RE:Carrier Duel: Charles de Gaul vs Kuznetsov --Opinions Please - gf0012   8/9/2005 2:03:01 AM
the french have real FWCA - the Russians are unable to deploy their aircraft at full combat or fuel load - so they are handicapped in air power immediately from day 1. so, France has real FWCA, organic AWACs (hence decent battle management systems available), better organic ASW on the Carrier as well as on the escorts, better subs. I'm assuming organic assets, and no land based support for other maritime ASh or ASW roles. Against a Soviet CBG? - no, against a Russian? more than likely.
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:Carrier Duel: Charles de Gaul vs Kuznetsov --Opinions Please - gf0012   8/9/2005 2:25:35 AM
I tend to agree. The French are over all better equipped in the air. Not because the Rafale vs SU-33 type of arguement but because of the handicap inherent with ski-jump, lack of fixed wing AWACs and battle management systems. But then again it seems the Russians have better anti-ship missiles like Kh-31. That and reletively small French Air Compliment could offset the technological advantages. I'm not so sure about under the sea though. You will have to explain that one gf. I know better than to question you there. But I certainly have to give the Russians the advantage in ASuW. If all the French have is Exocet then they better hope the Rafale pilots are on the bounce having to get within 50 km or so to fire. And you can all but forget about French surface ships getting into exocet range with SS-N-19/SS-N-22 being around IMO. But I'm not religious about that opinion. Actually the French SSN may be the best weapon for ASuW in the French Group. Also we cannot ignore other systems the Russians would surely bring to bear like Motherland based Bear/Backfire with ASMs which could respond to a limited meeting engagement if necessary without expanding the scope of the debate.
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:Carrier Duel: Charles de Gaul vs Kuznetsov --Opinions Please - gf0012   8/9/2005 2:29:40 AM
gf I do get your point though. Right now the Russians are more of a threat to themselves. If they were operating the Admiral Kuznetsov as Soviets then the outcome of this fight would trivia. But under current limitations, the French could win.
 
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gf0012-aust    RE:Carrier Duel: Charles de Gaul vs Kuznetsov --Opinions Please - gf0012   8/9/2005 2:40:32 AM
"Also we cannot ignore other systems the Russians would surely bring to bear like Motherland based Bear/Backfire with ASMs which could respond to a limited meeting engagement if necessary without expanding the scope of the debate. " hence my caveat of using only organic air for the exercise. the russian capability goes up considerably once you bring in land based air and long range stand-off.
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:Carrier Duel: Charles de Gaul vs Kuznetsov --Opinions Please - gf0012   8/9/2005 3:25:59 AM
gf, Organic air is fine. I still say the Russians have an offensive anti-ship strke and defensive anti-air advantage. The French have the offensive land attack advantage.
 
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gf0012-aust    RE:Carrier Duel: Charles de Gaul vs Kuznetsov --Opinions Please - gf0012   8/9/2005 3:47:35 AM
I've already said that the Russians have the better ASuW capability - but I'm not as convinced that they have a better anti-air warfare component. The French have a digital battle management system in place, they have air battle management, they have a far more stealthy submarine and hence strike capability. They also have a far more competent ASW capability at 3 levels, organic air generated, sub and skimmer capability. Russian ASW has never been a strong point, and they relied on saturation (eg Backfires "beating the brushes" as a line ahead regiment etc...) Battle Group against Battle Group with no landwarfare or land generated projection I don't see it as cut and dried. The French earned some well deserved respect out of Herakles, - the Russians haven't deployed a battle fleet on tempo for literally a decade - training and quality of training is critical. In addition, the French have had the luxury of ops at a maritime level with not only NATO through STANAVFORLANT - but also through exercises in the Pacific such as RIMPAC. They're far more conversant with dealing with Russian systems than vicer versa as they've been involved with numerous upgrades through entities such as Thales, Sagem.. etc... She's worked on Russian battle management and systems solutions for clients ranfing from the ME, East Asia and Sth America. OTOH, Russia does not have that degree of knowledge at a currency or competency level. It's not that cut and dried - and my money against a contemporary Russian battle group is to give it to the French. IMV French subs would dice up that fleet like chopped shallots. ;) IMV they'd be mobility killing the Russians long before the Russians were able to bring limited firepower advantage to bear.
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:Carrier Duel: Charles de Gaul vs Kuznetsov --Opinions Please - gf0012   8/9/2005 5:03:12 AM
gf I take your word for it on ASW and we agree on the ASuW. But anti-air goes to Russia in my opinion. Especially on defense and of course assuming Russian systems MTBF can be kept reasonable levels. Throw in the Flankers which AFAIK can carry full a2a stores from the ski-jump. And you have SAMs and AAMs that out range French air launched offensive weapons. Add to that Russian experience with data-links, Ka-31 and the crude but powerful Russian Radars. CdG looks a little light in the ASSets...;) Of course the Russian has to use a decent strategy as he is by no means overwhelmingly superior in any respect. Without Aster 30 the French have to keep enough Rafales dedicated to defensive a2a operations. Also the E-2 will need continuos protection as well. So if I am Russian I am pleased with the a2a situation. Given this reality, my first priority is to TWEEP the Rubis. Considering how difficult it would be to locate it, I would think the Russians would devise a strategy to bring the Rubis close enough to some spear throwers to take a shot at it before it initiated its attack.
 
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gf0012-aust    RE:Carrier Duel: Charles de Gaul vs Kuznetsov --Opinions Please   8/9/2005 5:19:23 AM
I'd argue that the French have got a possible 200-250km interrogation and battle management advantage over a Russian CBG. They have superiority in battlespace management which means that the Russian CBG has to extend and advance assets to go ferreting. Any ferret is a give away, whereas the French are able to bridge that gap with earlier detection strengths. The K's jets cannot rotate at full load or full weaps load - it's been a known problem. they either take off with full AA kit, or they take off with a mix, and any anti-shipping mix reduces AA loadout and commensurate drops in capability. K also has a shorter squadron of FWCA on board, that means reduced sortie rates, higher tempo for existing sortied platforms and less aircrafy to divvy up for strike and or cap. Long range PGM's are also a damocles sword. ;) you telegraph your punches esrlier with stand-off weaps. Plus, the French have been in the battle fleet management game vis a vis fleet carriers for a long time - they're not amatuers. ;)
 
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