Lock On - Modern Air Combat F-5E vs Mig-29A

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firestorm RE:Lock On - Modern Air Combat F-5E vs Mig-29A 1/29/2005 9:37:48 AM

I set up another engagement this time, the F-5E vs the SU-27, the setup was pretty much the same as before only the SU-27 was equiped with 6x R-27ET's, 4x R73s plus guns. On all 5 occasions, the SU-27 failed to knock out the F-5E with its R-27's so once again, things got close ranged. The F-5 found it ridicolously easy to knock out the SU-27 5 times in a row with AIM-9's at close range.

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Lawman RE:Lock On - Modern Air Combat F-5E vs Mig-29A 1/29/2005 11:05:55 AM

The F-5E was lethal in its day, and can still challenge most fighters in close combat. The Russian fighters would win at anything over 10-15km, using radar guided missiles, unless they are decoyed. Once in close in fighting, the real answer is down to pilot skill, combined with rate of turn. The Mig and Sukhoi are large aircraft, and without thrust vectoring would struggle against the nimble F-5. In close in fighting, you could probably beat an Su-27 with an upgraded A-4 Skyhawk, using the latest Python derivatives! (I'm not advocating trading modern fighters for the A-4 though!)

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firestorm RE:Lock On - Modern Air Combat F-5E vs Mig-29A 1/29/2005 9:31:47 PM

I was beginning to think that the F-5E was utterly invincible in Lockon Modern Aircraft, untill of course I put it up against a Mirage-2000. The Mirage-2000 defeated the F-5E ten times in a row. however, it failed to defeat the F-5 from medium range with its Mica's but still managed to defeat it confortably with its shorter ranged missiles and guns. It is however very interesting that an ultra-cheap combatant from the 60's can still win-over even the must expensive modern air combatants (in terms of out manoevering medium ranged missiles) and fighting at close range, scary really!!! I mean all it takes is a good, well disiplined pilot. This is of course assuming that Lockon Modern Air Combat is really being accurate about the reality of Modern Air Combat. Does the F-5 have the ability to detect incomming missiles from 15Km+? its a very VERY kick ass manueverable airplane so, maybe it could out-manuever Medium ranged missiles confortibly. I have heard about the Alamo's utterly petrifying Perfection but it doesnt seem to be doing the Job against an Ultra-manueverable plane like the F-5 Well even if it is this good or not, the F-5 remains the most adorable and motivating aircombatant in my book. Im so sad that it will eventually be phased out in order to make room for its replacement. I am assuming that the F-16 is likly to be its replacement (?) If only somebody somewhere, could take the F-5 and upgrade it to 2004 specs, I would be the happiest aircraft fan on the planet :) by the way, the f-18

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Aussiegunner1 RE:Lock On - Modern Air Combat F-5E vs Mig-29A 1/29/2005 10:18:43 PM

Sorry to disappoint, but your game is completely unrealistic. The Mig-29 and SU-27 are both a class above the F-5E, both with BVR capability and in the WVR environment. This is evidenced by the fact that the USN used to use F-5E's as aggressor aircraft, to simulate the Mig-21 when it was the main threat, but switched to F-16's when the Mig-29 came into service as the F-5E lacked the necessary capability. Also, during the only time the F-5E has been used in combat, the Iran/Iraq war, it suffered very lopsided losses agaist the Iraqi Mig 21's, Mig 23's and Mirage F-1's(see first link). It managed a few kills, mainly against ground attack types and helecopters, but also managed to kill a few Mig-21's and a Mig 25(god knows how! The Mig must have been taking off or landing)(see second link). The earlier F-5A in Ethiopian serice managed to kill a number of Somali Mig 21's during the Somali/Ethopian war, for no losses. However, they were operated by Israili mercenaries, which was probably the decisive factor. link link link

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AussieEngineer RE:Lock On - Modern Air Combat F-5E vs Mig-29A 1/29/2005 11:05:59 PM

I've got lock on, I love it. The problem isn't that the flight models are ultra unrealistic or anything its that the AI is very limited. However, the Mirage 2000 is over modeled in that game, I think its a problem with the delta wing. But its not a major aircraft in the game so it doesn't really count. If you fly the MiG-29 your self you'll find your able to take out the F-5 with ease. The MiG has very good acceleration in that game and can really turn and burn.

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shawn RE:Lock On - Modern Air Combat F-5E vs Mig-29A 1/31/2005 3:18:54 AM

While I think the Lock On game is skewed towards the player's aircraft, to answer you original question on modernised F-5Es and A-4s - I think that they are still able to provide a 'value-for-money' proposition for many air forces. The prime example is Singapore, which operates modernised A-4SU Super Skyhawks and F-5S1 Tiger II. The Skyhawks are just being retired, but when modernised in the late 1980s, they were given first rate avionics and F404 engines, making them the one of the most capable Skyhawk versions (except maybe ex-RNZAF A-4s with APG-63 radars, but the A-4SUs are the zippiest). Skyhawks have one of the best roll rates ever, and in close ACM combat, with off-bore AAM capability like the Python 4, a modernised version in the hands of a veteran pilot would be able to hold its own against almost any new aircraft. Singapore's F-5Es were updated to F-5S1 standard in the mid-1990s with LCD multifunction displays and new GIFRO radars, which enables them to handle at least AIM-7 Sparrows. They were also given a digital datalink to tie them into Singapore's IADS (Integrated Air Defence System). While these particular Tiger IIs aren't as multi-role capable as the latest F-16s (nor can they carry similar payloads), they are still quite adequate as Interceptors. In an intercept scenerio, a pair of F-5S1s would most likely be able to take on a pair of MiG-29As, especially if the Fulcrums are 'stock' (original avionics and fit) and the F-5s have AWAC support.

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Aussiegunner1 RE:Lock On - Modern Air Combat F-5E vs Mig-29A - Shawn 1/31/2005 3:37:03 AM

The RNZAF Skyhawks had APG-66's, not APG-63's. The former is the F-16's radar, while the latter is that of the F-15, a bit big even with the Skyhawk's prodigous lifting capability;-). I agree that upgraded A-4's and F-5's are still useful aircraft for third world airforce's, who can't afford anything better. New Zealand claimed that their A-4 upgrade gave them almost the capability of an F-16, at 1/6th of the price. It's probably a bit exagerated in the air to air sense, but air to surface it's a plausible claim. I don't think your scenario of an upgraded F-5 being able to take a Mig-29 is very relevant though. It rely's upon the F-5 recieving upgrades and force multipliers that the Mig doesn't have, not realistic in a dynamic world. The Mig 29 is simply a more modern, much better basic airframe than the F-5 is and it is hard to compensate for that fact. I also question how good a medium-range AAM carrier the F-5 will be, given its reletively poor speed/acceleration and the effect that the heavy missile's will have on such a small, low powered aircraft.

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gixxxerking RE:Lock On - Modern Air Combat F-5E vs Mig-29A - Shawn 1/31/2005 8:08:24 PM

In a 1 vs 1 fight the chances are almost EQUAL assuming no HMS and only rear aspect AAMs and Guns, equally skilled pilots. At BVR, you are going to lose that fight in the real world. Your victories are AI related. No Offense. But keep in mind that MIG can rocket straight up and away from you, push over and dis engauge at will or chose to come back down after you with more energy. Thats why I say almost.

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Aussiegunner1 RE:Lock On - Modern Air Combat F-5E vs Mig-29A - Shawn 2/1/2005 2:20:13 AM

"In a 1 vs 1 fight the chances are almost EQUAL assuming no HMS and only rear aspect AAMs and Guns, equally skilled pilots." You seriously think that an F-5E, based on a design coming out of the early 60's to give third world airforces a cheap fighter, is any match for a Mig 29 with twice the rate of climb and aerodynamic qualities equal or better than the F-16, in a guns only fight? Their is no comparison, the Mig is just a much more modern and better aircraft. You may as well be saying that a Hunter is an equal match for the F-5.

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gixxxerking RE:Lock On - Modern Air Combat F-5E vs Mig-29A - Shawn 2/1/2005 5:56:13 PM

You are comparing equipment. I specifically said two equal pilots. All a/c have weaknesses. But the biggest weakness is the guy in the pit. If you doubt me I'll refer you to the F-5 used as aggressors against F-14, F-18 ect. 1 vs 1 fights are almost always lost by the person who makes the first mistake no matter what a/c. But in a direct comparison of equipment then the MIG is superior.

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