russain aviation

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Navy Man RE:russain aviation 12/24/2001 12:05:49 AM

First let me begin by asking were you ripping or supporting Russian Aviation? Second, the swept wing configuration that you are talking about is designated the S-37 (Although made by the same company it is different the Su-37, and it official designation won?t be determined for years.) It is the Russian attempt to answer the F-22. Who ever told you though that it would be an equal or better is full of it. Here are some reasons why: the F-22 is smaller, has greater fuel efficiency, greater range, higher service ceiling, exceptionally lower radar cross section, more advanced electronics, higher speed (the F-22 can go Supersonic without burners) and will actually be more maneuverable at a lower speeds. Unfortunately, the most impressive aspects are still classified. Although they will both be called fifth generation aircraft, the F-22 just simple leaves the S-37 in the dust. As for comparing, with the JSF to it is like Apples and Oranges they have extremely different missions. Of course all of this depends on this plane ever going into production, which might only occur if they get the agreement to share the cost with China, India and Iran through. Oh and so you know we shot down some Mig-29?s and Su-27?s in the Gulf War, before they turned tail and ran to Iran.

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stingers RE:russain aviation 12/24/2001 6:04:27 PM

Talk about being unfair. Firstly, the S-37 isn't an answer to the F-22; its purely a technology demonstrator. You are obviously grievously misinformed. The Su-27 was at the time only in service in the Soviet VVS and PVO, and since then has only proliferated to the Ukraine, Belarus, China, Vietnam and Ethiopia (dont ask me how they got the money to pay for the plane, but it was flown against Eritrean MiG-29s by Russian mercs). The Su-27 is an excellent aircraft and is easily a match for the F-15, with greater all-out performance all round; and a radar/ avionics fit that, though it has inferior processing capabilities, gives the Su-27 credible BVR capability (though not against multiple targets simultaneously). Iraq possess no Su-27s. Additionally, if the Su-27 had been in Iraq's possession, I have no doubt they would've suffered the same fate as the Iraqi MiG-29s; in the words of Western pilots Iraq put some of the most incompetent pilots in the histroy of warfare into those Fulcrums, and they exhibited little if any desire to fight. Perhaps if the pilots of those Fulcrums had been from the Luftwaffe they would have racked up some victories before being overwhelmed.

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John RE:russain aviation 6/15/2002 10:32:51 AM

Who ever you are. You know nothing about Russian new technology. First do some research then talk about this subject.

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nakito RE:russain aviation 6/15/2002 9:34:15 PM

um John...who are you talking to?

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soren mateo RE:russain aviation 6/16/2002 9:36:02 PM

i'm no expert or anythin...but i was able to read some stuff over the net... i think the russians are developing a new aircraft, the mig 35 (the mig 1.45, or whatever it's designation is) to go head to head with the f-22. the aircraft is going to be stealthy also... and they would say...would beat the f-22. but then again, as with the mig-29, which they designed to beat the f-25 came up so short of that...and i ges, the mig-35 would suffer the same fate.

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Snakedriver RE:russain aviation 12/15/2003 12:56:36 PM

Can't help jumping in and talking about my favorite aircraft. Leo, I think you are mistaking the Su-27's in Bosnia. Bosnia never had Su's. They lost two MiG-29's to two F-16's as they strayed right in front of them without realizing they were there. Easy kills for the F-16 drivers. You're right about the R&D. They just don't have the funds. Once India gets up and running on the -30MKI I think we'll see some changes there. The Russian economy is starting to pick up as well so it will be interesting to see what happens. As far the engines they are poor compared to ours but they are getting a lot of Western help in fixing those. The South Africans were looking at one time of re-engining their F-1AZ's with MiG-29 engines. They redesigned some of the internal gearing and produced a very reliable engine but one that still produced a lot of smoke akin to the J79. This knowledge was passed on to the Russians which I believe used it to create the -33k version. Don't quote me on that specific. The base Su-27 can't be compared to the -30MKI/-35/-37 models. Which aircraft is better is really open to pilot skill. The real test will be the first time Pakistan's best F-16 pilot (they have one that is quite good with several IAF kills)goes head to head with India's best pilot flying Su-30MKI's. I honestly don't think the F-16 stands a chance. If it survives the onslaught of long-range missles it's going to go up against a fighter jock that has Helmet aimed IR missiles. I doubt the Pak's will get the AIM-9X missile any time soon but the Indian guy will have the very lethal Archer (40km range) and possibly the phenomenal Python 4 or Python 5 with 360 aspect and Lock On After Launch capability. We're not talking garbage Russian avionics for the MKI either, but Israeli, French and Indian equipment. Good equipment. Someday we'll see something on the news--then we'll know.

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Aardwolf RE:russain aviation 12/20/2003 6:39:47 PM

All right Smakedriver (judging by your handle I'm guessing it's possible that you might be an F-16 pilot), absent BVR, helmet-mounted sights, and off-boresight missiles, and assuming equally capable aircrew, what's you're assessment of the SU-27/37 in a fight against a late-model F-16C--who's got the odds and why?

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macseann RE:russain aviation 1/9/2004 1:46:48 PM

The Berkut (SU-47) and the new Mig are essentially technology demonstrators, as Russia simply doesn't have the money to develop either aircraft enough to put them in service. India could put money into it, but is happily just developing a local improvement on the Mig-29. China is going on their own pumping out massive numbers of their own Mig-21 copies and developing their own frontline fighter with Isrealis doing all the work. Both Russian aircraft work just fine, but there isn't much point in doing much with them if there aren't any customers for them. The big problem with the Su-27/37 and the Mig-29 is that they are 4th generation fighters with 2nd and 3rd generation avionics and weapons systems. On a clear day, with a great pilot, and up close, both aircraft could probably run circles around the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 in a dog fight, and probably even give the F-22 and the Grippen fits, but the avionics and weapons systems, as well as the superior training, of 4th and 5th generation aircraft is always going to carry the day. The USAF purchased 2 dozen Mig-29s from Moldavia (rather than allow Moldavia to sell them to Iran) in the mid-90s and were amazed had how good the aircraft were and how little had changed systemwise from the Mig-23 and -25. As far as their combat records, the -29 is pretty horrible. American, Pakistani, and Dutch F-16 have shot down MIG-29s over Iraq, the Afghan border (PAF F-16 shot down a couple of Soviet Mig-29s that had strayed into Paki airspace around 1990, as well as shooting down Afghan Migs probably flown by Russian pilots), and over Serbia. F-15s have also shot them down over Iraq and Serbia. The Su-27s only combat was over Erietia when Ukranian flown Su-27s in Erietian service shot down 2 Russian flown Ethiopian Mig-29s. So, all things being equal, the SU-27 is a better aircraft than the Mig-29, but neither are probably ever going to be in a position to have the edge on any of the 5th or now new 6th generation fighters.

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french stratege Russian should be underestimate 1/9/2004 3:03:43 PM

Air combat with second order nation : bad trained pilot, not up to date electronic, no C4ISR network, no awac, no recent missiles it doen't prove the capcities or F18 vs M29: german using them had proven how good they can be. Russian never gave their best aircraft to foreign counties: it is always special export version even to Warsaw pact countries. The Russian are still doing R&D even if funding is difficult: you can not compare the spending with US as R&D is essentially manpower and Russian salaries are 10 % or less those is USA. i'm a little pissed off that English or US claim their weapons are always the first while they never test them against a first order opponent. Until now these russian design are demonstators only.When I spoke few years ago Russia designer said me privately (at the end of communism) that development cycle average time was 9 years in Russia vs 4 years in western countries due to burraucratie and lack of motivation on hard working.Since Russia is now working with western method and harder I think that really their weapons are in fact better than before.

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french stratege Addendum 1/9/2004 3:06:18 PM

Russian avionic is absolutely no crap.Now they are doing R&D faster and they can use western or Japanese components easily (COTS often are used now)

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