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Subject: Don't use Israeli bullets, you'll upset the anti-Semites
American Kafir    6/24/2004 9:37:16 PM
link ----- WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Israeli-made bullets bought by the U.S. Army to plug a shortfall should be used for training only, not to fight Muslim guerrillas in Iraq and Afghanistan, U.S. lawmakers told Army generals on Thursday. Since the Army has other stockpiled ammunition, "by no means, under any circumstances should a round (from Israel) be utilized," said Rep. Neil Abercrombie of Hawaii, the top Democrat on a House of Representatives Armed Services subcommittee with jurisdiction over land forces. The Army contracted with Israel Military Industries Ltd. in December for $70 million in small-caliber ammunition. The Israeli firm was one of only two worldwide that could meet U.S. technical specifications and delivery needs, said Brig. Gen. Paul Izzo, the Army's program executive officer for ammunition. The other was East Alton, Illinois-based Winchester Ammunition, which also received a $70 million contract. Although the Army should not have to worry about "political correctness," Abercrombie was making a valid point about the propaganda pitfalls of using Israeli rounds in the U.S.-declared war on terror, said Rep. Curt Weldon, the Pennsylvania Republican who chairs the subcommittee on tactical air and land forces. "There's a sensitivity that I think all of us recognize," Weldon told the Army witnesses, including Maj. Gen. Buford Blount, who led the U.S. Third Infantry Division that captured Baghdad in April 2003. Blount, now the Army's assistant deputy chief of staff, said the Army had sufficient small caliber ammunition -- 5.56mm, 7.62mm and .50 caliber -- to conduct current operations in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere. But taken together with training needs, the United States had strained its production facilities, he testified. "To fight a major combat operation in another theater will require the Army to impose restrictions on training expenditures and to focus current inventory and new production on combat operations," Blount said. As a result, he said the Army hoped to stretch U.S. supplies to supplement the capacity of the government-owned Lake City plant in Independence, Missouri, that currently makes more than 90 percent of U.S. small caliber ammunition. The Lake City factory, operated by Alliant Techsystems Inc., has nearly quadrupled its production in the past four years. This year, it will produce more than 1.2 billion rounds, Karen Davies, president of the ATK arm that runs it, told the panel. Lake City provided more than 2 billion rounds a year during World War II and Vietnam, she said. The Army's needs will grow to about 1.5 billion to 1.7 billion rounds a year in coming years, Blount said. "In the near-term, balancing training requirements with current operational needs is a manageable risk-mitigation strategy," he said. The Army does not want to repeat its history of building capacity during wartime "only to dismantle it in peacetime," Blount added. ----- Leave it to a Democrat to worry about the brand name of the bullet used to KILL TERRORISTS.
 
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Kadett    Do we track them or something?   6/24/2004 10:25:58 PM
Seriously, how would anyone know where it came from?
 
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Ehran    RE:Do we track them or something?   6/25/2004 12:08:16 AM
the things people find to worry about.
 
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American Kafir    RE:Do we track them or something?   6/25/2004 8:17:13 AM
It doesn't matter if we track them or not. The point is that some well-meaning totalitarian fascist, I mean Democrat, seems to believe that terrorists attacking our troops would have a legitimate grievance with us if we used Israeli bullets. Think about it. They swear jihad against any and all Americans, kill thousands of us with hijacked airliners, cheer at the death, destruction, and mayhem they cause and revel in, and kidnap and behead whoever they can get ahold of, but... ...if we start shooting them with Israeli bullets they'll get ticked off at as. This is yet another example, among many, why Deomocrats should not be allowed near anything that might influence foreign policy whatsoever.
 
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ilpars    RE:Do we track them or something?   6/25/2004 8:28:06 AM
"The stupidy of human beings has no limit." Not sure where I heard this saying. By the way Turkish Army uses Israel made ammunition in many of its weapons. Never heard any objection for it anywhere anytime.
 
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Ijahman    RE:Don't use Israeli bullets, you'll upset the anti-Semites    6/25/2004 4:53:54 PM
With the backing of a Republican chairman... Did you even read the article? "Abercrombie was making a valid point about the propaganda pitfalls of using Israeli rounds in the U.S.-declared war on terror, said Rep. Curt Weldon, the Pennsylvania Republican who chairs the subcommittee on tactical air and land forces."
 
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American Kafir    RE:Don't use Israeli bullets, you'll upset the anti-Semites    6/25/2004 6:23:21 PM
>>With the backing of a Republican chairman... Did you even read the article? "Abercrombie was making a valid point about the propaganda pitfalls of using Israeli rounds in the U.S.-declared war on terror, said Rep. Curt Weldon, the Pennsylvania Republican who chairs the subcommittee on tactical air and land forces.<< So Weldon agreed that propaganda could be made of Israeli bullets killing terrorists. Why wouldn't he agree? The Democrat Abercrombie scored some propaganda with it. It even made Reuters.
 
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sentinel28a    RE:Don't use Israeli bullets, you'll upset the anti-Semites    6/25/2004 11:29:33 PM
Maybe Abercrombie read a book on the Indian Mutiny and thought the same thing could happen, or that the Arab media would pick up on it and use it to further "prove" the Iraq war being a Zionist plot. Of course, since al-Jazeera reads Reuters, the damage has already been done. Far as I'm concerned, spread the rumor that the Americans dip their Israel-made bullets in pig fat. It might make the jihadis a little more reluctant to be shot with them.
 
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appleciderus    How does one ID...   6/26/2004 8:53:13 AM
... a spent round? The only round a terrorist should be able to examine is a spent round. Political Correctness gone mad!
 
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American Kafir    RE:How does one ID...   6/26/2004 11:50:55 AM
>>... a spent round? The only round a terrorist should be able to examine is a spent round.<< They'd have to pick up some brass. Or rather, the survivors of the battle would have to pick up some brass. But, imagine Abercrombie taking testimony in a pointless blue-ribbon commission to determine how our enemies feel about being shot at. ::: "Yes, I had just finished beating my wife for not having my son's backpack bomb packed and ready for school when I heard the horrible sound of explosions and gunfire. Thinking I was missing a wedding celebration I had not been invited to, I grabbed my AK-47 and charged into the streets. That's when I saw the cruel imperialist occupiers, methodically killing innocent RPG-wielding career counselors and community religious leaders. That's when I felt the Zionist-manufactured 5.56mm NATO rounds enter my forehead and splash my brains upon the street behind me. I must tell you, I felt offended....violated..."
 
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displacedjim    RE:How does one ID... Quite Readily, Actually   6/28/2004 3:13:41 PM
As AK alludes to, the ID would come from the case. Bullets (i.e., projectiles) could be analyzed and through some metallurgical techniques identified by manufacturer, I'm sure. However, a simple glance at the headstamp on the base of the case will suffice to identify at least the country of origin of most any cartridge. Essentially all ammunition is manufactured with some information stamped into the base of the cartridge case. Usually this includes some sort of alphanumeric code for the factory of manufacture and the year of manufacture. However, sometimes more information is included, e.g., the lot number within that year's production, or the type of projectile loaded in that particular cartridge. Standard Lake City production uses a four element headstamp, with one character in each element, of " L C x x " equally spaced 90 degrees apart around the base, where the " x x " are the last two digits of the year of manufacture. The current standard is that all four characters have the same orientation as you look at it, with the letters "above" the primer and the numbers "below" it. Matters of orientation of the characters vary over time and from manufaturer to manufacturer, but in general that is the most common U.S. military ammunition headstamp format since WW I. I'm a pretty serious cartridge collector with many thousands of rounds in my collection. :-) Displacedjim
 
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