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Subject: Ogabe agrees to help China's civilian jet get FAA approval (i.e. the fix is in)
Zhang Fei    11/18/2009 8:54:32 PM
We may get to fly the friendly skies in a Chinese jet... sooner than expected:
One of the few concrete signs of cooperation to emerge from this week's U.S.-China summit could boost Beijing's drive to become a global aircraft maker. President Barack Obama pledged Tuesday to push for closer technical collaboration and eventual U.S. safety approval for China's ARJ21 commuter jet. That amounts to both a symbolic and practical step to counter Beijing's growing frustration with U.S. aviation policy and U.S. restrictions on the purchase of certain technologies. The high-profile U.S. initiative is especially significant because China's own safety regulators are still a year or more away from approving the 70-to-100-passenger aircraft being developed by Commercial Aircraft Corp. of China Ltd., or Comac. But signaling Washington's desire to provide technical support and regulatory certainty down the road also raises questions about both the overseas role and the independence of the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration, which has taken more of an arm's-length approach toward certifying the safety of China's future airliners. Over the years, the FAA has forged close ties with Chinese carriers and aviation regulators through a multitude of joint safety efforts, data sharing and training programs. Hundreds of Beijing officials, airline managers, pilots and controllers have visited their U.S. counterparts. Partly as a result, the country's commercial-aviation accident rate?China has gone nearly five years without a major fatal crash?is by some measures better than that of the U.S. But when it comes to regulatory approval, the FAA has tried to maintain greater distance. Before Mr. Obama's announcement, for example, FAA representatives in China pulled back from helping Comac teams developing the ARJ21 because of concern that such assistance might be considered a conflict of interest when other parts of the agency gear up to determine whether the plane meets U.S. safety standards. Nearly half the plane's parts come from the U.S. An FAA spokeswoman declined to comment on President Obama's announcement or what it means for future FAA steps. So far, Western interest in buying the ARJ21 has been limited. At the Zhuhai air show in southern China last year, Comac announced that its first overseas order had come from General Electric Co. GE, which is supplying the engines, agreed to buy five of the regional jets with an option for 20 more, in a deal that could amount to $750 million. But GE also said that it planned to lease all the planes inside China. FAA certification is critical if Beijing hopes to attract other foreign buyers, and some U.S. officials predict it could take as long as two years. Currently undergoing flight tests, the plane has taken about twice as long to develop as its backers initially projected. In some ways, however, the current discussions may be more of a prelude to broader commercial and regulatory cooperation on a larger Comac-designed jet, the more than 160-seat C919. Slated for certification no earlier than 2016, that model would compete directly with the two leading global airliner suppliers, Boeing Co and Airbus, a unit of European Aeronautic Defence & Space Co. Though still in early design, Chinese officials have said the C919 should have operating costs 10% below those of comparable Western jetliners Safety and business considerations aren't the only reason for U.S.-Chinese friction over aerospace collaboration. Honeywell International Inc. has struck a tentative deal to provide avionics and terrain-avoidance warning systems to Chinese customers. But one glitch, according to Honeywell officials, is that Chinese authorities insist that the updated digital maps Honeywell uses can't include data about sensitive facilities and man-made obstacles throughout China.
 
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Hamilcar       11/30/2009 3:42:37 AM

"Just because the FAA approved it this time, makes it as okay as when the Department of Commerce allowed Loral to tech transfer ballistic missile guidance capability to the PRCs? Sorry, but appeal to government authority run by the same cast of clowns that gave is the Long March disaster (Clinton retreads with a stuffed shirt out front) is exactly another proof that you don't know what you discuss.     

 

The Chinese needed that Loral tech because they had exterminated all of their rocket scientists during the GLF and needed more advanced rocket capabilities for satellite and nuke placement. Gutless panda lickers and corporate traitors persuaded/bullied/bribed the US gov't into allowing the sale.  Now the PRC can put missiles in CONUS as far as SLC and Denver from their boomers (good thing the Chinese can't build or maintain subs).
 
The Chinese could not launch satellites before Loral. After Loral their INS systems worked just fine.  Two birds one stone. Their guidance systems never worked until Americans fixed them. Same exact garbage with the the KH-31 we fixed for Russia. Might want to review your history, the two of you; Nan and Darth.

Same goes for you, Nan. Never sell anyone short. Just building and launching a rocket that puts a satellite into orbit, puts you into the big leagues. Repeat that thirty or forty times and you have an aviation industry. An airliner involves exactly the same kind of industrial capability so demonstrated. Same engineers can figure it out. Want to dispute this?   

No problem, the US, Europe and Russia were flying planes since before WW1 and commercial airlines came out just after WW1, using bomber airframes as a baseline to start from.  That was...almost 40 years before sputnik.  Funny how China can put men in space but can't build a commercial airliner.  Probably because everyone got suckered into helping China with its space program, the Russians more so than anyone.

Give them an advanced set of avionics and a family of jet engines to go with it that can  be morphed into anything jet propelled, and show them how it all ties together and you save them the forty years of system integration research they would need to do to duplicate your work. Instead of starting at 1960, they suddenly start 2000.

We've given them way to much, fortunately Chinese culture does not promote skilled trades so their mechanical abilities suck.  That is why they STILL have to import Russian engines.  At least until they can get a couple of turncoats from Brazil, Israel, the US, EU, Japan or Russia to sell them some precision machinery or even better, the full specs on that machinery.

Then what is your problem? If you agree on fact, then what is the dispute?

 
It amazes me that supposedly intelligent people cannot figure that out

As opposed to mindless drones like you?

Is that so? How mindless? Better knowledge of the tech at risk apparently than you seem to possess.
 
Oh well. some people can argue data, and some people just argue. 

And you can do neither.

I just demonstrated that you are so incoherent here that you don't know friend from foe. Further you have yet to address one of many technological points raised. At least Sentinel tried, though he still hasn't connected the systems integration lessons they will learn with their future successors to the H-6.

   
As for panda licker, you must be joking. Don't take this personally, but your insult is as invalid as your technical assessment;. 

You could write a book on kowtowing hongxing.

To the PRC bandits  EVER, Nan? Do you really believe that? 
 
 As for the other polemicist, he has yet to argue one technical point at all. All he has is emotion and a meaningless question long since answered.

 
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Nanheyangrouchuan    Hamilcar   11/30/2009 11:08:31 AM
"The Chinese could not launch satellites before Loral."
 
You've never heard of the  DFH-1, launched in 1970?  They also had their own domestic car lines.  All gone after the cultural revolution.  Pick up a history book sometime.
 
As for addressing specific tech in the PLA, I'm not a military science person, but China has yet to even design its own airplane.  The J-10 is just a Lavi.  Modifying someone else's airframe is not grassroots design, just as their commercial air entry is an absurd Embraer copy.  Care to offer any explanation as to why China has this model available so quickly only a few years after signing a R&D JV with Embraer?
 
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Hamilcar    It was with RUSSIAN HELP!    11/30/2009 8:24:17 PM

"The Chinese could not launch satellites before Loral."

 

You've never heard of the  DFH-1, launched in 1970?  They also had their own domestic car lines.  All gone after the cultural revolution.  Pick up a history book sometime.


 

As for addressing specific tech in the PLA, I'm not a military science person, but China has yet to even design its own airplane.  The J-10 is just a Lavi.  Modifying someone else's airframe is not grassroots design, just as their commercial air entry is an absurd Embraer copy.  Care to offer any explanation as to why China has this model available so quickly only a few years after signing a R&D JV with Embraer?

Well, well. 
 
Yes I do read history. They launched two radio transponder tracking targets (Sputnik like objects) into an orbit that they could not path predict. 

That is not an aimable ballistic missi8e. That is a cannon ball that moves fast enough to achieve orbit. VAST difference. Loral was the difference.

As for the Embraer, read what I wrote above about systems integration. That ain't an H-6. 
 
 
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sentinel28a       12/1/2009 2:53:15 PM
Because the ELINT gear can be built into the Chinese airframe and "black boxed", accessible only by authorized people from the home office in China.  Not so with Boeing or Airbus gear.
Ah, I see.  The American maintenance people on those aircraft would never ask questions what those funny additions to the airframe are.  And the airlines that fly ARJs would never ask questions why their planes have to be taken out of service, flown 5000 miles back to China, and serviced there.  And should the Chinese come to the US, no questions would ever be asked what the hell they're doing with certain black boxes that the maintenance crews aren't allowed to ask questions about.  Because...uhm...they're all panda lickers, I guess.
 
(What do pandas taste like, anyway? Chicken?  I'm sure I don't want to know. I had alligator the other day; it wasn't that good.)
 
Nan, you can call me a panda licker all you like; I mean, I was in love with a Chinese girl once, and I don't advocate war with China, so I guess that makes me a true-blue CCP sympathizer.  But Hamlicar?  Holy crapdoodles, every time the word "China" is included in a sentence, Hamlicar's next post usually includes the words "CCP bandit."  Calling him a panda licker is like calling Dick Cheney a Democrat.
 
I think you need help, Nan.  Seriously.  Your hatred for China has gone past despising their leadership (which I agree with) to hating the entire Chinese people.  You're seriously moving into Mein Kampf territory here, dude.
 
 
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FJV       12/2/2009 12:29:25 PM
Because the ELINT gear can be built into the Chinese airframe and "black boxed", accessible only by authorized people from the home office in China.
 
The added unnecesary weight would ruin the plane's chances at commercial succes.
 

 
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