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Subject: Ogabe agrees to help China's civilian jet get FAA approval (i.e. the fix is in)
Zhang Fei    11/18/2009 8:54:32 PM
We may get to fly the friendly skies in a Chinese jet... sooner than expected:
One of the few concrete signs of cooperation to emerge from this week's U.S.-China summit could boost Beijing's drive to become a global aircraft maker. President Barack Obama pledged Tuesday to push for closer technical collaboration and eventual U.S. safety approval for China's ARJ21 commuter jet. That amounts to both a symbolic and practical step to counter Beijing's growing frustration with U.S. aviation policy and U.S. restrictions on the purchase of certain technologies. The high-profile U.S. initiative is especially significant because China's own safety regulators are still a year or more away from approving the 70-to-100-passenger aircraft being developed by Commercial Aircraft Corp. of China Ltd., or Comac. But signaling Washington's desire to provide technical support and regulatory certainty down the road also raises questions about both the overseas role and the independence of the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration, which has taken more of an arm's-length approach toward certifying the safety of China's future airliners. Over the years, the FAA has forged close ties with Chinese carriers and aviation regulators through a multitude of joint safety efforts, data sharing and training programs. Hundreds of Beijing officials, airline managers, pilots and controllers have visited their U.S. counterparts. Partly as a result, the country's commercial-aviation accident rate?China has gone nearly five years without a major fatal crash?is by some measures better than that of the U.S. But when it comes to regulatory approval, the FAA has tried to maintain greater distance. Before Mr. Obama's announcement, for example, FAA representatives in China pulled back from helping Comac teams developing the ARJ21 because of concern that such assistance might be considered a conflict of interest when other parts of the agency gear up to determine whether the plane meets U.S. safety standards. Nearly half the plane's parts come from the U.S. An FAA spokeswoman declined to comment on President Obama's announcement or what it means for future FAA steps. So far, Western interest in buying the ARJ21 has been limited. At the Zhuhai air show in southern China last year, Comac announced that its first overseas order had come from General Electric Co. GE, which is supplying the engines, agreed to buy five of the regional jets with an option for 20 more, in a deal that could amount to $750 million. But GE also said that it planned to lease all the planes inside China. FAA certification is critical if Beijing hopes to attract other foreign buyers, and some U.S. officials predict it could take as long as two years. Currently undergoing flight tests, the plane has taken about twice as long to develop as its backers initially projected. In some ways, however, the current discussions may be more of a prelude to broader commercial and regulatory cooperation on a larger Comac-designed jet, the more than 160-seat C919. Slated for certification no earlier than 2016, that model would compete directly with the two leading global airliner suppliers, Boeing Co and Airbus, a unit of European Aeronautic Defence & Space Co. Though still in early design, Chinese officials have said the C919 should have operating costs 10% below those of comparable Western jetliners Safety and business considerations aren't the only reason for U.S.-Chinese friction over aerospace collaboration. Honeywell International Inc. has struck a tentative deal to provide avionics and terrain-avoidance warning systems to Chinese customers. But one glitch, according to Honeywell officials, is that Chinese authorities insist that the updated digital maps Honeywell uses can't include data about sensitive facilities and man-made obstacles throughout China.
 
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xylene       11/19/2009 1:14:48 AM
Doesn't surprise me anymore. I find it shameful how Obama has reduced the office of president to being a high profile lobbyist for bankers and industry.
 
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DarthAmerica       11/19/2009 1:24:25 AM

Doesn't surprise me anymore. I find it shameful how Obama has reduced the office of president to being a high profile lobbyist for bankers and industry.

Of course because the best way to ensure we have a war with China is to encourage more business with them.


-DA 
 
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YelliChink       11/19/2009 10:50:55 AM


Of course because the best way to ensure we have a war with China is to encourage more business with them.

-DA

Exactly.
 
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EvilFishy       11/19/2009 11:57:28 AM

Of course because the best way to ensure we have a war with China is to encourage more business with them.

-DA 



Are you really this blind Darth? Have you not seen them take our advanced technologies and apply them for military applications?

Hell, they don?t have to make war on the USA to hurt the USA when Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, and India make such nice targets (and possess all that Chinese land they stole!).

Do you think this President and this Congress, who take 12 months to decide whether or not to fund a war the President called the ESSENTIAL and the RIGHT WAR would lift a finger to stop China from harassing or invading her neighbors with military equipment designed and produced using American technology?

Even if the above posted is indeed nonsense, what does this doe to commercial aviation in the USA when they get yet another competitor but this time one in a foreign land that does not recognize law and where that competitor is given the very technology they need to sell cheap knock offs to undermine the market?

Think it cannot happen? It already has.


 
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sentinel28a       11/20/2009 4:20:53 PM
I call a tempest in a teapot.  So Obama helps the ARJ21 get FAA approval--that doesn't mean it's going to suddenly take over US air transportation.  If I have a choice between buying Boeing and buying Comac, I'll buy Boeing, who has been building commercial airliners for nearly 80 years.  Let's see...who's Comac again?
 
This reminds me of when Dassault was trying to sell the Mercure (it was buried by the 737; only Air Inter, a French airline, ever flew it) or when Convair was trying to push the 880/990 series (great aircraft, but the 707 was much cheaper and more reliable).  The free market will determine what gets bought, not politicians, though they might try.  I don't think Obama is going to start demanding that US air carriers Buy China, when he's been pushing Buy America so much lately.  Boeing is one of Washington State's primary employers, and losing Boeing's votes might cost him the state.
 
Moreover, the regional jet world is dominated by Embraer (Brazil) and Bombardier (Canada).  China's sticking an untried design into an already saturated market, just as Russia is trying to--and failing at--with the Sukhoi 100.
 
So let the FAA approve the ARJ21.  If it's a good airplane, it'll sell.  If it's typical Chinese shoddy equipment, the Chinese will have to sell them to the PLAAF to avoid looking stupid. 
 
When it comes to Obama defending Taiwan, I have my doubts, and I'll leave it at that.
 
 
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Nanheyangrouchuan       11/20/2009 4:33:11 PM

I call a tempest in a teapot.  So Obama helps the ARJ21 get FAA approval--that doesn't mean it's going to suddenly take over US air transportation.  If I have a choice between buying Boeing and buying Comac, I'll buy Boeing, who has been building commercial airliners for nearly 80 years.  Let's see...who's Comac again?

 

This reminds me of when Dassault was trying to sell the Mercure (it was buried by the 737; only Air Inter, a French airline, ever flew it) or when Convair was trying to push the 880/990 series (great aircraft, but the 707 was much cheaper and more reliable).  The free market will determine what gets bought, not politicians, though they might try.  I don't think Obama is going to start demanding that US air carriers Buy China, when he's been pushing Buy America so much lately.  Boeing is one of Washington State's primary employers, and losing Boeing's votes might cost him the state.

 

Moreover, the regional jet world is dominated by Embraer (Brazil) and Bombardier (Canada).  China's sticking an untried design into an already saturated market, just as Russia is trying to--and failing at--with the Sukhoi 100.

 

So let the FAA approve the ARJ21.  If it's a good airplane, it'll sell.  If it's typical Chinese shoddy equipment, the Chinese will have to sell them to the PLAAF to avoid looking stupid. 

 

When it comes to Obama defending Taiwan, I have my doubts, and I'll leave it at that.

 



The ARJ21 is a massive copyright infringement on Embrear designs anyway.  The Brazilians must've told themselves "it will be different this time" when they entered into a JV with China.
 
 
I could see a struggling airline try to use this jet on small hops, but either massive maintenance, poor vendor support or a spectacular crash will kill China's chances.  
 
And all of you embarrass yourselves acting like Obama is the first President to allow such deals.  Yes, I'll concede Clinton on rocket technology, but I"ll raise you Nixon's rollovers on Tibet and Taiwan for getting...absolutely nothing in return, Ford and Carter sat in office during the height of the cultural revolution, so nothing was going on then, Reagan allowed massive industrial technology to flow unimpeded into China, I watched Chinese engineers pour over GE's main locomotive manufacturing facility, the same facility that also makes cruise missile engine and gyroscopes...
 
And both Bushes oversaw the unrestricted flow of IT technology to China, to the point where our imported chips are almost guaranteed to have PLA codes at the ring 0 level.
 
But it's all Obama's fault.
 
 
BTW Evangelicals are evil, substance abusing closet homos.
 
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YelliChink       11/20/2009 6:06:59 PM
www.tgdaily.com/security-features/44743-china-has-free-reign-over-us-computers
 
scary stuff
 
[quote]
Chinese spies have much better access to US government and defense industry computer networks...,  according to a congressional advisory panel report.
 
The US-China Economic and Security... Review Commission told Congress that there was evidence to suggest Chinese state involvement in such activities.
[unquote]
 
 
 
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DarthAmerica    @EF   11/20/2009 7:14:28 PM



Of course because the best way to ensure we have a war with China is to encourage more business with them.




-DA 










Are you really this blind Darth? Have you not seen them take our advanced technologies and apply them for military applications?

Always so melodramatic you are. Look, increased business and competition in the airline markets is not a bad thing nor is this a military threat.
-DA



 
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Hamilcar    Two words.....    11/20/2009 7:39:22 PM
JET ENGINES.
 
Loral made Long March possible and credible. 
 
It would be nice if some people around here would wake up. 
 
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EvilFishy       11/21/2009 12:18:29 AM

-DA---Always so melodramatic you are.----

I may be melodramatic but you are short sighted to a dangerous degree.

I am a realist. China is not modernizing her forces to keep the nasty Japanese at bay. They have long term goals in mind and it will not be in our best interests to helpd them to come to pass.

-DA---Look, increased business and competition in the airline markets is not a bad thing nor is this a military threat. ---

1) Competition between individuals who play by the rules IS a good thing. China does not play by the rules. China STEALS, LIES, and CHEATS to a degree that would make the Soviets blush.

2) China IS a military threat in many ways if not in a direct soldier v soldier match up (yet) but they are equipping and preparing for the day when they can challenge the USA soldier to soldier.

 

----Hamilcar Two words..... 11/20/2009 7:39:22 PM JET ENGINES.

Loral made Long March possible and credible.

It would be nice if some people around here would wake up. ---

DING- DING- DING-!! We have a winner!

Any person who thinks the transfer of commercial aviation technology will stay solely and specifically in commercial aviation is either willfully blind or ignorant because we have a plethora of examples where the Chinese have taken duel use technologies and used them to benefit their own military (including some involving commercial jets, irony of ironies).

 
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