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Subject: NY Trial
appleciderus    11/13/2009 9:24:28 PM
Former mayor Rudy: ?Returning some of the Guantanamo detainees to New York City for trial, specifically Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, has now brought us full circle ? we have regressed to a pre-9/11 mentality with respect to Islamic extremist terrorism,? former Mayor Rudy Giuliani said in a statement. ?Khalid Shaikh Mohammed should be treated like the war criminal he is and tried in a military court. He is not just another murderer, or even a mass murderer. He murdered as part of a declared war against us?America.? Rudy said the same on Cavuto this afternoon. I think as soon as the sheilk's usefulness expires, so should he. Quietly, painfully, and anonymously. Not another 5 year trial with casualties.
 
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DarthAmerica    @sentinel   11/24/2009 3:25:59 PM

I guess I have none, DA.  Other than the fact that anyone who picks up a gun is now a warrior.

 No, that isn't what I said. That's also not the definition. Again: 

One who is engaged in or experienced in battle. 
 So...

Gang members who kill for turf and drugs?  Warriors.
Yes

Al Capone's torpedoes? Warriors. 
Yes

Quantrill's terrorists? Warriors. 
Yes

Chivington's people? Warriors. 
Yes

AQ types? Warriors. 
Yes

Me, when I pick up my hunting rifle? Warrior.  Never really thought of myself as one, since the deer can't exactly shoot back, but I'm now a warrior in the same class as an elite SF type in Afghanistan or a samurai.  Makes me feel warm and fuzzy, but it's not accurate.
 
No, you are hunting. Not engaged in combat or battle. Do you understand now the difference?
 

I guess you and I differ on the definition of a warrior.  I see gangbangers, Mafia gunmen, and terrorists as criminals who should be treated as such.  You apparently do not.  At some point one crosses the line between a soldier with rules and a criminal who kills for fun.  Do you see what I'm saying here?

I see what you are saying. But I'm using the common english dictionary definitions. Soldiers are a type of warrior.  As are terrorist and even some criminals. There are differences. It's important for people to get confused. AQ are neither soldier or criminal. They exist in a legal grey area that falls within the domain of national security threat. That makes them a military/intelligence problem primarily. When those fail terrorist become a police problem since they are going to be the first responders. But their actions should not be considered criminal. Instead, acts of war would be more appropriate. KSM and AQ don't kill just for the sake of it. They kill to further a political and military agenda. Those that they kill are killed for that purpose and are the collateral that they are willing to pay. Yes it's terror. But that's not a new paradigm in warfare. Dresden, London, Hiroshima ect. The real difference with past incidents of terror is that these modern instances are not state sponsored. Thus there is no enemy nation to retaliate against but rather individuals and groups. Individuals and groups that must either be reconciled with if possible or if not in the case of an ideological motivation, terminated. They understand that. We need to as well. The military needs to make that decision.



-DA 


 
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sentinel28a       11/24/2009 4:03:44 PM
Shooting unarmed people makes you a warrior, then.  Wow.  You're splitting hairs here, DA, and I don't know why.
 
Still with the moral equivalence, too.  London as a terror bombing, I can see.  Dresden you can make a case for.  But Hiroshima? That was not to spread terror; it was to end it, by ending the war before the US was forced to annihilate Japan as a people.
 
Do you see evil anywhere in the world, DA, or just differences of opinion?
 
 
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DarthAmerica       11/24/2009 4:17:51 PM

Shooting unarmed people makes you a warrior, then.  Wow.  You're splitting hairs here, DA, and I don't know why.

Combat Sentinel. THAT'S the difference. We shoot unarmed people all the time in the real world. Seen it. Do you think all of these people were armed?



Still with the moral equivalence, too.  London as a terror bombing, I can see.  Dresden you can make a case for.  But Hiroshima? That was not to spread terror; it was to end it, by ending the war before the US was forced to annihilate Japan as a people.

 No, the war with Japan was over for all intents and purposes. The nuclear weapons were used to demonstrate power. To frighten people which by definition is terror. Not that I disagree with the decision. I just know it for what it was.

Do you see evil anywhere in the world, DA, or just differences of opinion?

 Yup, sure do. But I also have the gift of objectivity. To do effective analysis you have to be able to see the truth in things. It's very difficult which is why so many cannot do it and when they try they are almost always wrong.

-DA 


 
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Hamilcar    Ah if it were only true.....   11/24/2009 4:55:04 PM
 ":Yup, sure do. But I also have the gift of objectivity. To do effective analysis you have to be able to see the truth in things. It's very difficult which is why so many cannot do it and when they try they are almost always wrong."
 
BEST laugh I've had all day.
 
 
 

 
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Hugo    Buzzard   11/24/2009 5:35:01 PM



 I think you have a poor grasp of the U.S. legal system and the liabilities involved in this approach. There's a lot of things which could get them off the hook here due to technicalities, and there's far too much in the way of intelligence means and sources which will be exposed in civilian court.


 

There is no legitimate practical upside to trying them in NY. 


I never referred to your current civil law system as the correct alternative to a military trial.  I stated that I believe those who were violated ought to determine guilt and punishment.  I am opposed to a statist legal system entirely and believe the only just legal system is a private one.  I realize that isn't currently an alternative option considering that the state demands and violently enforces monopoly jurisdictional control.  If you are suggesting that only a military court provides an opportunity for justice (i.e. as opposed to a statist civil trial) then that is considerable justification for my position.
 
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buzzard       11/24/2009 7:05:35 PM
I never referred to your current civil law system as the correct alternative to a military trial.  I stated that I believe those who were violated ought to determine guilt and punishment.  I am opposed to a statist legal system entirely and believe the only just legal system is a private one.  I realize that isn't currently an alternative option considering that the state demands and violently enforces monopoly jurisdictional control.  If you are suggesting that only a military court provides an opportunity for justice (i.e. as opposed to a statist civil trial) then that is considerable justification for my position.
 
 So you advocate a nonexistent fantasy for the best option. OK then.
 
Back in the realm of reality, a military tribunal is about the only way to do the job in a way which doesn't cause more trouble than it is worth. Though to be quite honest a bullet in the back of the head of each of them is probably the most efficient means. 
 
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PlatypusMaximus       11/24/2009 7:24:31 PM
When Mr. Muhammed goes on trial, Soldiers will be defending him, and warriors will be presenting his defense?
 
It's indefensible. There is no making sense of it regardless of the label.
 
I've been noticing alot lately that after the abject disgust comes some level of amusement...but when you mix the worst decision-making of the 21st century with dead Americans, it never gets fascinating or fun.
 
JUST
HORRIBLE
 
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warpig       11/24/2009 8:53:07 PM

Personally, I don't feel
these Al Qaida criminals ought to be tried by the US military.  It
wasn't the US military's rights that were violated.  Let the citizens
of New York, and others harmed evaluate the crimes committed and the
appropriate punishment.  I feel confident that they will do a better
job of justice than the political ditherers in Washington.

 

 I think you have a poor grasp of the U.S. legal system and the liabilities involved in this approach. There's a lot of things which could get them off the hook here due to technicalities, and there's far too much in the way of intelligence means and sources which will be exposed in civilian court.


 

There is no legitimate practical upside to trying them in NY. 



 
 
Personally, I do not think this makes a difference, as whether the victims were civilian or military doesn't matter, but please recall there were also about 50 military victims killed in the Pentagon on 9/11, and thousands more military victims were affected by these terrorists.  I would be perfectly content if KSM et al. were found guilty of "merely" 50+ counts of murder by a military tribunal and executed for their warcrimes.
 
 
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Godofgamblers       11/24/2009 10:16:46 PM

GOG, the women of Afghanistan disagree with you about the Taliban being "no threat to anyone."  The ones who are still alive and not permanently disfigured anyway.  Oh, and let's not forget the number of capital offenses available in Taliban territory...flying kites, listening to rock music, doing anything the Taliban doesn't like, etc.

 

Yeah, they're no threat, just as much as the Gestapo was no threat to anyone so long as you did exactly what you were told.

 

DA, by comparing the terrorists of AQ to soldiers, you are insulting your own profession.  Unless the US Army has now made murdering civilians wholesale to be SOP, AQ's fighters are not soldiers, no more than the Einsatzgruppen were.  All they deserve is a firing squad.  Simplistic? Perhaps.  But it is the only language they understand.  To paraphrase William T. Sherman, they have chosen war as their remedy and we should give them all the medicine they can hold.

 

 


Sorry if i sound heartless, sentinel, but who cares? Is the priority of the US Army to fight so that people can fly kites in Kabul? I maintain that if the Talibs are so terrible, their own people will overthrow them. I bet a lot of the women support the status quo. You'd be amazed at the success rate of acculturation and brainwashing. And it is misguided and ultimately futile to barge into someone else's culture and try to 'rectify' it. Such efforts are always always doomed to failure. The Afghans deserve the system they have. If a change is to come they must make it themselves; if it is imposed from the outside, it is meaningless.
 
If a population rises up against a regime, their is nothing a regime can do to stop it, no matter how powerful. As in the case of the Gestapo you gave. If the German people were really anti-Nazi, the regime wouldn't have lasted long. The fact is that most people WERE pro nazi. Let's leave things to the Afghans. if they don't unset the Taliban on their, then they deserve them.
 

 


 
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DarthAmerica    @GoG   11/24/2009 10:45:11 PM
Sorry if i sound heartless, sentinel, but who cares? Is the priority of the US Army to fight so that people can fly kites in Kabul? I maintain that if the Talibs are so terrible, their own people will overthrow them. I bet a lot of the women support the status quo. You'd be amazed at the success rate of acculturation and brainwashing. And it is misguided and ultimately futile to barge into someone else's culture and try to 'rectify' it. Such efforts are always always doomed to failure. The Afghans deserve the system they have. If a change is to come they must make it themselves; if it is imposed from the outside, it is meaningless.

 
We care because the Taliban harbored a hostile terrorist group that cause mass casualties in the USA. This isn't about Afghanistan. It's about preventing the same thing from happening again. It is now a geopolitical imperative for the United States to not allow sanctuary and harbors for hostile non state actors.

-DA 

-DA 
 
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