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Subject: NY Trial
appleciderus    11/13/2009 9:24:28 PM
Former mayor Rudy: ?Returning some of the Guantanamo detainees to New York City for trial, specifically Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, has now brought us full circle ? we have regressed to a pre-9/11 mentality with respect to Islamic extremist terrorism,? former Mayor Rudy Giuliani said in a statement. ?Khalid Shaikh Mohammed should be treated like the war criminal he is and tried in a military court. He is not just another murderer, or even a mass murderer. He murdered as part of a declared war against us?America.? Rudy said the same on Cavuto this afternoon. I think as soon as the sheilk's usefulness expires, so should he. Quietly, painfully, and anonymously. Not another 5 year trial with casualties.
 
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YelliChink       11/21/2009 10:57:19 PM

in my country we caught a bunch of these guys and lined them up against a wall! And you are calling them warriors and they may walk....!?!?!
 
Very well said. You need to go to the US and tell a lot of US politicians and media workers in face that they are practically insane, then watch their head explode by the reality you bring upon them.
 
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PlatypusMaximus       11/21/2009 11:11:29 PM
I don't want him to walk, and I'm no expert on law enforcement or prosecution, but I believe that in a civil trial of any kind, he has to walk.

I'm just hoping as a best-case scenario, that Obama actually and honestly believes that if we afford Mr. Muhammed a civil trial (meaning immediate mistrial) because he attacked our civilians, then the incentive to attack our civilians (especially near that federal district) will be reduced.
For the record, I prefer the pigskin terrorist ravioli.



 
 
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DarthAmerica       11/22/2009 1:21:16 AM

It's very depressing to read stuff like this. You guys are arguing over whether KSM is a warrior or a criminal?! You have to know your enemy to defeat him; these guys are no legitimate soldiers. They are fighting to create a caliphate; such a creation is delusional. It would mean a dozen different countries giving up their sovereignty.... it is weirder than a pipedream.... and how will they accomplish this? through campaigning, elections, raising public awareness? No, by planting bombs in far off countries and slaughtering completely innocent people?!!! These guys are psychotic.... nuts.... the Russians ran into these guys in the High school masscacre (name escapes me) and slaughtered them all.... in my country we caught a bunch of these guys and lined them up against a wall! And you are calling them warriors and they may walk....!?!?!

Very depressing stuff....


No offense but have you fought them? Legally speaking fine. But in practice, I can assure you, they are very much warriors. I should also add the following. While I do think that Obama/Holder should have let the military deal with this, the chosen method is not likely to result in them walking and it is very well prepared to handle these kinds of suspect. In fact, that particular court is probably the most experienced in the United States for dealing with "terrorism" trials as are the security personnel who's job it will be to keep things safe during the trial. The real risk here is precedent with regard to our own clandestine/covert operations and the slim but still admittedly possible chance of a not guilty verdict or mistrial. The reward if it works will be political, ideological, moral and of course the beginning of then endof the Gitmo facility which is no longer in our best interest.


-DA 
 
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Hamilcar    Warriors?   11/22/2009 2:34:05 AM
 

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed

No one exemplifies the model of the terrorist entrepreneur more clearly than Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the principal architect of the 9/11 attacks. Khalid followed a long path to his eventual membership in al Qaeda. Highly educated and equally comfortable in a government office or a terrorist safehouse, KSM applied his imagination, technical aptitude, and managerial skills to hatching and planning an extraordinary array of terrorist schemes. These ideas included conventional car bombing, political assassination, aircraft bombing, hijacking, reservoir poisoning, and, ultimately, the use of aircraft as missiles guided by suicide operatives.

Like his nephew Ramzi Yousef (three years KSM?s junior), KSM grew up in Kuwait but traces his ethnic lineage to the Baluchistan region straddling Iran and Pakistan. Raised in a religious family, KSM claims to have joined the Muslim Brotherhood at age 16 and to have become enamored of violent jihad at youth camps in the desert. In 1983, following his graduation from secondary school, KSM left Kuwait to enroll at Chowan College, a small Baptist school in Murfreesboro, North Carolina. After a semester at Chowan, KSM transferred to North Carolina Agricultural and Technical State University in Greensboro, which he attended with Yousef?s brother,another future al Qaeda member. KSM earned a degree in mechanical engineering in December 1986.

Although he apparently did not attract attention for extreme Islamist beliefs or activities while in the United States, KSM plunged into the anti-Soviet Afghan jihad soon after graduating from college. Visiting Pakistan for the first time in early 1987, he traveled to Peshawar, where his brother Zahid introduced him to the famous Afghan mujahid Abdul Rasul Sayyaf, head of the Hizbul-Ittihad El-Islami (Islamic Union Party). Sayyaf became KSM?s mentor and provided KSM with military training at Sayyaf?s Sada camp. KSM claims he then fought the Soviets and remained at the front for three months before being summoned to perform administrative duties for Abdullah Azzam. KSM next took a job working for an electronics firm that catered to the communications needs of Afghan groups, where he learned about drills used to excavate caves in Afghanistan.

KSM first came to the attention of U.S. law enforcement as a result of his small role in the first World Trade Center bombing. According to KSM, he learned of Ramzi Yousef?s intention to launch an attack inside the United States in 1991 or 1992,when Yousef was receiving explosives training in Afghanistan. During the fall of 1992,while Yousef was building the bomb he would use in that attack, KSM and Yousef had numerous telephone conversations during which Yousef discussed his progress and sought additional funding. On November 3, 1992, KSM wired $660 from Qatar to the bank account of Yousef?s co-conspirator, Mohammed Salameh. KSM does not appear to have contributed any more substantially to this operation.

Yousef?s instant notoriety as the mastermind of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing inspired KSM to become involved in planning attacks against the United States. By his own account, KSM?s animus toward the United States stemmed not from his experiences there as a student, but rather from his violent disagreement with U.S. foreign policy favoring Israel. In 1994, KSM accompanied Yousef to the Philippines, and the two of them began planning what is now known as the Manila air or ?Bojinka?plot, the intended bombing of 12 U.S. commercial jumbo jets over the Pacific during a two-day span. This marked the first time KSM took part in the actual planning of a terrorist operation. While sharing an apartment in Manila during the summer of 1994, he and Yousef acquired chemicals and other materials necessary to construct bombs and timers. They also cased target flights to Hong Kong and Seoul that would have onward legs to the United States. During this same period, KSM and Yousef also developed plans to assassinate President Clinton during his November 1994 trip to Manila, and to bomb U.S.-bound cargo carriers by smuggling jackets containing nitrocellulose on board.

KSM left the Philippines in September 1994 and met up with Yousef in Karachi following their casing flights. There they enlisted Wali Khan Amin Shah, also known as Usama Asmurai, in the Manila air plot. During the fall of 1994, Yousef returned to Manila and successfully tested the digital watch timer he had invented, bombing a movie theater and a Philippine Airlines flight en route to Tokyo. The plot unraveled after the Philippine authorities discovered Yousef?s bomb-making operation in Manila; but by that time, KSM w

 
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Godofgamblers       11/22/2009 2:46:58 AM
 
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Godofgamblers       11/22/2009 2:52:10 AM
 
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Godofgamblers       11/22/2009 2:56:03 AM
  



It's very depressing to read stuff like this. You guys are arguing over whether KSM is a warrior or a criminal?! You have to know your enemy to defeat him; these guys are no legitimate soldiers. They are fighting to create a caliphate; such a creation is delusional. It would mean a dozen different countries giving up their sovereignty.... it is weirder than a pipedream.... and how will they accomplish this? through campaigning, elections, raising public awareness? No, by planting bombs in far off countries and slaughtering completely innocent people?!!! These guys are psychotic.... nuts.... the Russians ran into these guys in the High school masscacre (name escapes me) and slaughtered them all.... in my country we caught a bunch of these guys and lined them up against a wall! And you are calling them warriors and they may walk....!?!?!




Very depressing stuff....




















Yelli buddy, don't get me wrong. I am all for thinking outside the box, but there is
a difference between thinking outsidr the box and going into full on madness.

Its only in the minds of these sociopaths that they are warriors. So we can't run
the trial based on their twisted point of view. That would be giving them
legitimacy. It would be analogous to putting on trial a mass murderer who had
meglomaniacal visions of himself as Napoleon and ordering the judges to wear
perfumed wigs and speak in 19th century French!

Its crazy.

Let me tell you guys a story. Canada had its own 9/11 intelligence failure when
militant Sikhs put a bomb aboard an Air Canada flight to India. It killed 100s of
people. The Canadians had been wiretapping these jokers for years but somehow
dropped the ball. They put the Sikhs on trial and it weet on for decades. Witnesses
forget what they had said years before, the prosecution had no idea what it was
doing, also confused about 'terrorist', 'criminal', 'warrior' considerations. And
the gov't 'lost' all the evidence and surveillence tapes (probably to cover their
derrieres). End result? The Sikhs walked! the trial cost millions. the Canadians askd the Sikhs
to pay for some of it, but they just laughed.

About a year later, these idiots, probably out of a meglomaniacal sense of
invulnerability, went to India 'on vacation'. What did the Indians do? (Most of the
bomb victims were Indian, btw) Did they conduct a multi million dollar decades long
show trial? No, the Sikhs 'died in interrogation'. Probably simply shot behind the
Police Station.

Obviously I am not advocating either of the above approaches, but you can see the
insanity in treating them as 'warriors'.

DA, I usually appreciate your out of the box thinking, but you have really slipped
off the cultural Moebius strip in this one!
 
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Godofgamblers       11/22/2009 2:58:20 AM
Okay DA, sorry for doubting you. I now understand where you are coming from. You are
not talking about KSM but the Taliban, right? If so, I agree that they are guerrillas
and are fighters. But KSM is not one of them. What country was he defending when he
killed Daniel Pearl? Was Pearl in a uniform? What had he done to deserve such
brutality? What warzone were the victims of 9/11 in? None. KSM is not a guerilla; he
is not in a war. He is a mad dog that deserves to be put down.
 
I appreciate your take on the Taliban and that Guantomano was a bad idea, but
comparing KSM to the Taliban is like comparing apples to psychopaths. 
 
 

 




It's very depressing to read stuff like this. You guys are arguing over whether KSM is a warrior or a criminal?! You have to know your enemy to defeat him; these guys are no legitimate soldiers. They are fighting to create a caliphate; such a creation is delusional. It would mean a dozen different countries giving up their sovereignty.... it is weirder than a pipedream.... and how will they accomplish this? through campaigning, elections, raising public awareness? No, by planting bombs in far off countries and slaughtering completely innocent people?!!! These guys are psychotic.... nuts.... the Russians ran into these guys in the High school masscacre (name escapes me) and slaughtered them all.... in my country we caught a bunch of these guys and lined them up against a wall! And you are calling them warriors and they may walk....!?!?!




Very depressing stuff....









No offense but have you fought them? Legally speaking fine. But in practice, I can assure you, they are very much warriors. I should also add the following. While I do think that Obama/Holder should have let the military deal with this, the chosen method is not likely to result in them walking and it is very well prepared to handle these kinds of suspect. In fact, that particular court is probably the most experienced in the United States for dealing with "terrorism" trials as are the security personnel who's job it will be to keep things safe during the trial. The real risk here is precedent with regard to our own clandestine/covert operations and the slim but still admittedly possible chance of a not guilty verdict or mistrial. The reward if it works will be political, ideological, moral and of course the beginning of then endof the Gitmo facility which is no longer in our best interest.







-DA 




 
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sentinel28a       11/22/2009 3:32:13 AM
Sorry, GOG, but I disagree that the Taliban are warriors.  Just because they pick up a gun and shoot people for their own goals does not make them soldiers.
 
A true soldier is a man or woman who puts on a uniform, picks up a gun, and defends their country and their country's interests with their own lives, and with honor.  A true soldier does not degenerate into war crimes in the process.  When the Taliban did what they did when they ran Afghanistan, they ceased being soldiers and became criminals. 
 
The Einsatzgruppen who committed massacres in the Soviet Union during WWII--Babi Yar being only one of many--wore uniforms.  They were not soldiers, but mass murderers.  And there is a huge difference, and I hope DA, as a soldier, should realize that.  There is a world of difference between dropping a bomb on Hiroshima to end the war, and herding defenseless, unresisting civilians into a ravine and machinegunning them because they look different or have a religion you don't like.
 
There is a world of difference between a Paul Tibbets and a Paul Blobel; there is a world of difference between a Nathan Bedford Forrest and a Robert Gould Shaw; there is a world of difference between a William Calley and DA.
 
KSM is no soldier, no more than the Columbine shooters were soldiers or Al Capone was a soldier (to borrow from Hamlicar).  He is excrement in human form.  To say that he's a soldier is an insult to real soldiers worldwide. 
 
 
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YelliChink       11/22/2009 2:33:30 PM

Sorry, GOG, but I disagree that the Taliban are warriors.  Just because they pick up a gun and shoot people for their own goals does not make them soldiers.


I think GOG knows the difference. He just posted the twisted point of view of those d_ckheads and pointed out that civilian trial may lead to release of those terrorists due to the deficiency of Western legal system.
 
Now I start to understand Jack Ruby.
 
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