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Subject: NY Trial
appleciderus    11/13/2009 9:24:28 PM
Former mayor Rudy: ?Returning some of the Guantanamo detainees to New York City for trial, specifically Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, has now brought us full circle ? we have regressed to a pre-9/11 mentality with respect to Islamic extremist terrorism,? former Mayor Rudy Giuliani said in a statement. ?Khalid Shaikh Mohammed should be treated like the war criminal he is and tried in a military court. He is not just another murderer, or even a mass murderer. He murdered as part of a declared war against us?America.? Rudy said the same on Cavuto this afternoon. I think as soon as the sheilk's usefulness expires, so should he. Quietly, painfully, and anonymously. Not another 5 year trial with casualties.
 
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Hugo    Hamilcar   12/2/2009 11:19:31 AM
Note what was in red.

It worked.  Germans now know in their bones that war is a horrible  waste. The civil population did not FEEL or see war personally as shock action in WW I. WW II they did. Shock works.
 
First, let us dispense it the euphemisms and call it what Churchill admitted it was - "terror."
 
Second, the sort of atrocities committed by the Allies are not taught or even widely communicated in Germany - which is a good thing for peaceful relations.  There are no museums addressing the carnage, there are no politicians who speak out against what happened.  The atrocities are not in the German consciousness.
 
Third, the Germans certainly did feel horror in (or more precisely after WW1) when the British and French (admittedly not the US) continued the illegal naval blockade of Germany well after signing the armistice which resulted in hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths - many of them children.  Many historians sight this injustice as a major reason for Germans' later support for the National Socialists - those children starved by the allies after the war had conluded would later don uniforms for a man desireous of revenge.
 
Terror doesn't work, it breeds a generation seeking revenge.  All governments should do their utmost to avoid civilian casualties but to actually target them is a war crime.
 
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Hugo    Hamilcar   12/2/2009 11:40:23 AM
 
Note what was in red.

It worked.  Germans now know in their bones that war is a horrible  waste. The civil population did not FEEL or see war personally as shock action in WW I. WW II they did. Shock works.

 
And just to be clear what my view is, the Germans fought even harder and more stubbornly in the Second World War than in the first knowing what terror had happened, particularly committed by the advancing red army, to their citizens.  The Germans know that war is a horrible waste because of what they did - which is very well understood, not because of what was done to them - which is largely unknown.
 
 
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Hamilcar    My great aunt lived through that hell and told me.   12/2/2009 11:42:36 AM

Note what was in red.

It worked.  Germans now know in their bones that war is a horrible  waste. The civil population did not FEEL or see war personally as shock action in WW I. WW II they did. Shock works.
 
First, let us dispense it the euphemisms and call it what Churchill admitted it was - "terror."

 There is no euphemism. I used the words 'shock action" because that is what was applied; physical shock action on the Human being..

Second, the sort of atrocities committed by the Allies are not taught or even widely communicated in Germany - which is a good thing for peaceful relations.  There are no museums addressing the carnage, there are no politicians who speak out against what happened.  The atrocities are not in the German consciousness.

 Then why do I know about Eisenhower's mistreatment of German PoWs?  Great uncles plus archives .

Third, the Germans certainly did feel horror in (or more precisely after WW1) when the British and French (admittedly not the US) continued the illegal naval blockade of Germany well after signing the armistice which resulted in hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths - many of them children.  Many historians sight this injustice as a major reason for Germans' later support for the National Socialists - those children starved by the allies after the war had conluded would later don uniforms for a man desireous of revenge.

 Siege and starvation is not shock action.

Terror doesn't work, it breeds a generation seeking revenge.  All governments should do their utmost to avoid civilian casualties but to actually target them is a war crime.



She was strafed by a USAAF P-51 when she drove a milk wagon from a small town in the Saarland.
 
Revenge only applies if the lesson is not driven COMPLETELY HOME. 
 
Being blockaded and starved is nothing like being bombed or struck by weapon effects. (Know about this too from family and self.) I saw her fear in her memory as she told me. Believe me it left an indelible impression on me and influences me in a very specific way to this very day.
 
 
 
 
 
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Hugo       12/2/2009 12:38:09 PM
Whatever the experiences of your aunt or your uncles, the German fight was reinforced by the atrocities conducted against it's citizens not lessened.  And I referred to common German understanding of World War 2 bombings not your own knowledge of your aunt being used as target practise by a sadistic airman.  In Eastern Germany under the communists and in the West under democrats, history lessons were construed to avoid mention of atrocities against Germans.
 
You can discuss the naval blockade all you like, it is commonly acknowledged to have given the Germans bad blood.  It was illegal and killed hundreds of thousands of women and children. 
 
What the American airforce member said he was wrong.  Churchill's view contradicts his.  You could also have gone through with your Morgenthau plan but that wouldn't have been smart.
 
Regardless, the discussion was one of addressing the question of whether or not the allied airforces, including the USAF, conducted themselves in a similar manner to that of the Luftwaffe - i.e. whether they can be compared.  That question has been answered for me.
 
 
 
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Hamilcar       12/2/2009 1:28:17 PM

Whatever the experiences of your aunt or your uncles, the German fight was reinforced by the atrocities conducted against it's citizens not lessened.  And I referred to common German understanding of World War 2 bombings not your own knowledge of your aunt being used as target practise by a sadistic airman.  In Eastern Germany under the communists and in the West under democrats, history lessons were construed to avoid mention of atrocities against Germans.

Of course it was until they quit. But they quit. And there wasn't much resustance to the occupation.
 
You can discuss the naval blockade all you like, it is commonly acknowledged to have given the Germans bad blood.  It was illegal and killed hundreds of thousands of women and children. 

And I know this, but "the civilian government stab the HERR in the back myth" was what fueled the Brown Shirts-not the blockade. . Again family testimony and archives. The civilian's suffering didn't make that much of an impression on THEM. There was a disconnect between the Herr and the Volk.   
 
What the American airforce member said he was wrong.  Churchill's view contradicts his.  You could also have gone through with your Morgenthau plan but that wouldn't have been smart.

Post surrender, you can show mercy and even common sense (Morgenthau was an economic idiot). WW II was not the war where you could show mercy while you fought it. The Germans and Japanese were ferocious and terrifying enemies. Thank whomever that they were not efficient. 
 
 
Regardless, the discussion was one of addressing the question of whether or not the allied airforces, including the USAF, conducted themselves in a similar manner to that of the Luftwaffe - i.e. whether they can be compared.  That question has been answered for me.

My answer is that it was technically impossible to bomb the way you want when the tools available  had 1 km miss errors as an average. Was it possible to do better? Of course it was possible if you designed the right tools in  1935. The Germans used a dive bombing tactical air force to attack cities. Wrong tools. The Allied heavy level bombers were area bombers. That was what they had.  They used their 1935 tools to fight a 1943 war. If there were Mixmasters and Mosquitoes in 1935, then  you would see those streaking in at low level unloading over point targets all around Berlin in 1943. Lay down bombs from low level schnell bombers would make precision bombing more possible and effective. But as long as you have to bomb at night from two kilometers or more up and you have navigation errors measured in kilometers and bomb drop drift errors measured in hundreds of meters, then city killing is all you have. Lancasters were not accurate. Neither were B-17s in daytime for much the same reasons.          

 
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DarthAmerica    @Hamilcar   12/2/2009 1:33:51 PM

Strategy is your objective. Tactics is the means.



Holder's and Obama's objective in the KSM trial is to domestically gain revenge on the Bush Administration. A tribunal would be speedy and fair with KSM buried in a holding cell upon conviction as he awaits his death for confessed war crimes. That is the Roosevelt Method. Kill them quick and sweep the security breach under the rug.


Holder chose a civilian trial where maximum publicity (and no death certain) is there to make possible the best opportunity to embarrass the US government and hopefully reveal some "crimes" of the previous administration; so that via that means (they were thwarted in Congress when they, the Obama crowd, tried earlier in committee to force Congressional  testimony that they could use for criminal proceedings. Being worse lawyers than non-lawyer, Cheney, with no grounds for subpoena, they couldn't, as he told them all to go to hell.) they can initiate revenge prosecutions on 'political opponents" that way.

 

That's tactics. Notice that the good of the nation which should always be a strategic objective has no bearing in this?


 

Have a nice day.


 



Wrong. Thanks for your opinion anyway though.
-DA
 

 





 
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Hamilcar       12/2/2009 2:03:16 PM
My facts are not opinions or assertions.
 
 
 Eric Holder's grave mistake

By Michael Gerson
Washington Post Writers Group

Published on Wednesday, Nov 18, 2009

WASHINGTON: Eric Holder — distinguished prosecutor, judge, foe of public corruption, basketball enthusiast, mentor to disadvantaged youth — seemed a reassuring choice for attorney general. When Holder affirmed during his confirmation hearing that America remains at war with terrorists, Sen. Lindsey Graham enthused, ''I'm almost ready to vote for you right now.''

So how did Holder become the most destructive member of Barack Obama's Cabinet?

Holder launched his tenure by showing disdain for the work of career federal prosecutors when it fit his ideological predispositions. In 2004, a task force from the Eastern District of Virginia investigated allegations of misconduct against the CIA and found insufficient evidence of criminal conduct or intent. Holder ignored the views of these respected prosecutors and appointed his own special prosecutor, appeasing a political constituency that wanted the CIA to be hounded and punished. As a result, morale at a front-line agency in the war on terror has plunged.

What possible reason could a bright, ambitious intelligence professional have to pursue a career in counterterrorism when the attorney general of the United States is stubbornly intent on exposing and undermining his colleagues?

Now Holder is displaying an exaggerated respect for the work of career federal prosecutors in New York, also when it fits his ideological predispositions. He is asking them to make the case against five 9/11 conspirators, in a circus atmosphere, with an uncertain chain of evidence (gathered on a battlefield), under a cloud of torture allegations that Holder himself has encouraged.

There is one serious argument for this course: that a civilian court will provide greater legitimacy for the imposition of the death penalty than a military tribunal. But the guilt of these terrorists is not in question. And it is difficult to imagine that those repulsed or impressed by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's confessed crimes will care much about the procedures surrounding his sentencing.

In exchange for a marginal public relations advantage, America will be subjected to the airing of intelligence sources and methods, to the posturing of mass murderers fully aware of their terrorist star power, to the possibility of mistrial and procedural acquittal, and to an increased threat of revenge attacks against New York City.

Holder seemed to concede this last complication by asserting that New York is ''hardened'' against possible terrorism. If I were a New Yorker, that would fall into the category of chilly comfort.

In the end, Holder made a decision memorable for its incoherence. He declared American military tribunals constitutional and appropriate for some terrorists — then awarded 9/11 mastermind Mohammed a presumption of innocence and the full O.J. Simpson treatment.

In the original plan for the terrorist attacks, according to the report of the 9/11 commission, Mohammed was supposed to be on the only hijacked plane that landed. He would kill all the males aboard, then make a dramatic speech to the world. At his trial, he will now get his wish.

Holder's choices do not reflect the normal policy shifts between administrations. It is not typical that seven former directors of the CIA have publicly denounced Holder's assault on the institution they served. It is not typical that Holder's immediate predecessor, Michael Mukasey, has called the plan for trials in Manhattan a risky ''social experiment'' that will raise the risk of attack ''very high.''

Something unique and frightening is taking place: The ACLU is effectively being put in charge of the war on terror.

Holder contends that if people will ''in a neutral and detached way, look at the decision . . . and try to do something rare in Washington — leave the politics out of it and focus on what's in the best interest of this country — I think the criticism will be relatively muted.'' Holder clearly views himself as Atticus Finch, dispassionately defending the rule of law against the howling mob. In fact, Holder is taking the legal path blazed by former Attorney General Ramsey Clark, who defined legal objectivity as indifference to the soiled interests of his country.

Holder's liberal principles have become ''detached'' from the real-world struggle against terrorism: Let justice be done, though the heavens, and bu

 
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DarthAmerica    @Hamilcar   12/2/2009 2:35:13 PM


This is the type mechanism that we need to apply to these wahhabist psychotics in the Middle East. The actual nexus and target populations of idiots is fairly small and well known as to numbers and locales. Wipe them out and seize the means of propagandizing from them and the billion or so misled  superstitious people they misrule and mislead can be fairly quickly re-educated and brought into the 21st Century. This is nowhere as hard as defeating the Soviet Union, or fighting WW II. Those enemies were extremely clever and dangerous. These clowns and they are clowns are NOTHING as to same magnitude threat.. And we are supposed to be afraid of these idiots?


Never. If they (the few who are the true idiots) want to die, then oblige them. 


 
This is completely wrong. You really don't understand this enemy or the politics. This is orders of magnitude harder then Soviets BTW. Every general officer I've talked to and every NCO or Junior Officer in the field will tell you that. You can't bomb away this problem Hamilcar. This is every bit as much of a problem and more as the Soviets. In fact, this problem will outlive the Soviets as a threat to the United States.

-DA 

 







 
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DarthAmerica    @Hamilcar   12/2/2009 2:39:05 PM

 

Now that is opinion, but it is far more coherent and fact based than the assertions and declarations you made. There is reason and logic there, that is easy for the simplest and least capable to follow. It is laced with FACTS. I provide it as an example of how to make a coherent argument for emulation     


^1 I refer you again to what I just bluntly told you about Holder's and Obama's true intent.

Strawman. I'm not arguing with you about either Obama or Holders intentions. I already made clear that I disagree with this strategy of handling terrorism the way you would crime. Stop deflecting and focus on the issue. This decision by the administration to use civilian courts represents the strategy the United States is not pursuing to deal with terrorist. THAT IS MY POINT. You know, it isn't necessary to argue over nothing.

-DA 
 
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Hugo       12/2/2009 2:51:45 PM
Hamilcar, it isn't a case of not having the right machinery to have avoided mass civilian casualties, the civilians were specifically targetted, allied political and military leadership acknowledged this, it's documented.  Thus, I dispute Sentinel's original claim that one side's airforce fought the war so differently from the other that no moral comparison can be made. 
 
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