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sentinel28a 12/1/2009 2:37:54 PM

Wrong. The USA has practice one of history's worst examples of racial extermination ever for hundreds of years. Also, I just showed you that the USA choose it's targets for atomic bombs with killing civilians as a specific objective. It's interesting how you keep ignoring that. It's ugly but it's the truth man. Accept it.

Why? Because you say it is? You're wrong, DA, and unlike you, I have the evidence to prove it, because I've actually read about the decision making process that went into choosing the atomic bombs. If killing civilians was the sole reason, why not drop the bombs on Tokyo? There were still far more civilians in Tokyo, even after the firestorms there. Matter of fact, why use the atomic bombs at all? Why not continue with the incendiary raids? Far more civilians were killed in the fire raids than in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Or better yet, why not go with the Navy's plan and starve Japan into submission? A lot more civilians would die from starvation.

The atomic bombs were chosen because it would provide enough shock that the Japanese would pack it in. It wasn't a sure thing that it would work, and it almost didn't; we have Hirohito to thank for that it did work. (Of course, we also have Hirohito to thank for letting the war get started in the first place, but that's for another time.) Truman did not sit down with the target planners and ask, "How many Japs can we kill with this thing?"

But of course you won't listen. It doesn't fit in with your preconceived notion that the US is/was a rotten country with a history of "racial extermination" to rival that of Nazi Germany. You are constantly lambasting us over slavery without mentioning that several hundred thousand Americans died to end it, and several hundred thousand more were maimed for life in the process as well. We corrected the problem ourselves; we didn't have to be invaded and conquered to stop it, unlike Germany and Japan.

If you're referring to the Indians, you might also mention that both sides got pretty nasty over the years. There's no excuse for a Sand Creek, but there's no excuse for a Fort Mims, either. If the US is to be faulted for Manifest Destiny, save some bile for the Sioux Nation, who happily did their best to exterminate the Crow, Shoshone, and Pawnee that they were busy forcing out of their traditional lands. There's a reason why the Crow and the Shoshone teamed up with Custer in 1876, and it wasn't because they thought he was a rock star. I could go on to mention Mangas Colorado's reign of terror in northwest Mexico long before the Americans got there, or the Comanches' habit of disfiguring any female captives they might take, or even go back as far as the Aztecs' practice of ritual genocide, but again, it wouldn't fit well with your preconcieved notions of American history.

I agree with you on Islam. However, there's got to be some movement on their side of the fence too. Too much of Islam is still mired in the 6th Century, and until Muslims the world over actively and publicly condemn radicals like bin Laden and KSM, they're going to stay mired--which is, of course, exactly what the radicals want. One side can't do all the heavy lifting here, and so far, it's been largely our side saying "Don't condemn Islam for the actions of a few!" while that silent majority of Islam remains, well, silent.

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DarthAmerica 12/1/2009 3:07:33 PM

If you were familiar with the target selection process you would know why Tokyo wasn't chosen. "Shock" is terror Sentinel. Accept the truth. You have got to be kidding me to compare fire bombing to an atomic bomb. The destructive potential contained in that single explosion is by far more terrifying than a bombing raid that required hundreds of planes and bombs. The facts are that civilians were targeted and incinerated/irradiated on purpose with the purpose of terrorizing the Japanese into surrender and the rest of the world to accept American military power. SImilarly, knocking down the WTC wasn't chosen because it would kill the most Americans. There are many other targets that could have been chosen. It was done for the shock as well. Pot kettle black. The only difference is that one act of terror had a state sponsor and the other didn't.

-DA

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sentinel28a 12/1/2009 3:18:21 PM

I guess you're right, DA. Truman was an evil bastard who only wanted to kill Asians. That was the only thing in his mind. America's no better than any other country in the world; in fact, we're far worse. We should be begging the rest of the world for forgiveness for the crime of merely existing.

I'm going to retire from teaching too. I shocked my students with the news that the final's next week; I guess that means I'm a terrorist.

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Hamilcar I had to clean this up. 12/1/2009 8:22:08 PM

Attack the case, not the man. Until you have something to say about the case, you just waste effort and time.

Now do you have any facts or logic? So far, your posts have been off topic and not useful toward convincing some of us that you have a case built of anything but emotionalism . No science, no law, no sense at all about KSM or the Afgham .fiasco is what I read..

You can't even get the difference between strategy and tactics right and you are supposed to be a soldier.

Sad.

The edits are in blue. It also holds true for today as it did for yesterday.

The core issues are still not addressed by him as requested as to law, war, and logic with concern to the wrong decisions made with KSM and the basic immorality and technical incompetence shown.

Note the word incompetence with respect to Holder, Obama, and that whole crew of amateurs that he fails to address as to their non understanding of law, islam, war, and how the real world actually operates except as to their own biased power elitist misconception of what politically works on the spirit of domestic vengeance?

Settling domestic political grudges does not make for good legal solutions.

Off topic slightly. But military knowledge here and incompetence is also at issue.

Not efficient. It also says something when most of the new troops headed to Afghan land are headed to secure the LOC from Karachi to Kandahar. Hello? This is exactly what the logistic situation (disaster) requires but it does nothing to address the sanctuary areas in Pakistan. That is VIETNAM and DEFEAT in a nutshell.

It just amazes me that these damned fools repeat Vietnam exactly the same way in Vietnam and those who justify this lunacy cannot see how stupid it is.

Note that word stupid. All in or all out. Henceforth, the defeat is Obama's, as the propaganda debacle in NYC is all Holder's.

18 months and out. Cut and run.

All, the Taliban has to do is lay low and then resume the fight in 19 months. Stupid.

Bribes and words "surges" and UAV pinprick strikes don't solve this problem there. Only bullets and bombs address the problem until the enemy's will is broken. That is WAR in a nutshell. You use murder to change the enemies' minds. When they quit, you stop.

Settling domestic political grudges does not make for good solutions.

So we should address KSM in kind. Send the message BLUNTLY to people like him that we will send them TO HELL as a Moslem understands it. Hence the pork comment.

Its a war to get inside the enemy's head and make him realize that he will never achieve anything but his own death in the most horrible way he can imagine. Use his foolish superstition against him. In the end, discredit that religion of his and leave him shattered spiritually as well as physically. That too is war.

That is strategy. How we kill KSM under law is tactics.

Is that clear?

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DarthAmerica @Hamilcar 12/1/2009 9:49:17 PM

So we should address KSM in kind. Send the message BLUNTLY to people like him that we will send them TO HELL as a Moslem understands it. Hence the pork comment.

Laughable. You think that is going to matter to people who are already willing to DIE in order to kill you? You have a gross misunderstanding of the Radicals. The only thing that STUPID suggestion would do is enrage the local populace and allies.

More silliness. These men already view themselves are dead and would GLADLY submit to that fate for a chance to kill you. You also aren't going to discredit that religion. What you would do is restart the crusades and ensure that you will not succeed there. Again, you don't know what war is. Ultimately victory in the region isn't going to be achieved by military means. We are not going to nor are we able to commit the kinds of resources necessary to do that. Many nations have tried and failed using brutal methods and it hasn't worked. Get it through your head that kind of foolishness does not work.

That is strategy. How we kill KSM under law is tactics.

Is that clear?

Yep. It's clear you don't know what tactics are either. Killing KSM under law is a huge example of a strategy. That you don't understand that is amazing. But it's understandable considering your past suggestions.

-DA

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Hugo Sentinel 12/2/2009 3:52:19 AM

Gimme a break. Let's see...we have Allied air forces targeting industries in cities compared to Luftwaffe Ju-87s purposely targeting what were obviously civilian refugee columns--in the hopes that causing mass casualties and chaos would delay retreating armies in France and Russia. Maybe the Luftwaffe was more circumspect in the West, but in Russia villages were obliterated that had no military purpose; Stalingrad was churned into rubble long after the Luftwaffe had already taken out anything of military significance.

Gimme a break. Let's see...we have Allied air forces targeting industries in cities compared to Luftwaffe Ju-87s purposely targeting what were obviously civilian refugee columns--in the hopes that causing mass casualties and chaos would delay retreating armies in France and Russia.

Really? I'll point you to this, courtesy of Richard Norton-Taylor then,

"Bomber Command was ordered to attack Berlin, Dresden, Leipzig and other east German cities to 'cause confusion in the evacuation from the east" and "hamper the movements of troops from the west'.

This directive led to the raid on Dresden and marked the erosion of one last moral restriction in the bombing war: the term 'evacuation from the east' did not refer to retreating troops but to the civilian refugees fleeing from the advancing Russians.

Although these refugees clearly did not contribute to the German war effort, they were considered legitimate targets simply because the chaos caused by attacks on them might obstruct German troop reinforcements to the Eastern Front."

and from the BBC,

"Britain and the US bombed small towns in Germany in the final stages of the second world war because they would burn easily and not because they were strategically important, documents found in the public record office reveal.

The documents cast new light on the allied bombing campaign after the razing of Dresden in February 1945 when at least 30,000 people were killed, many of them refugees fleeing from the Russians.

The following month, the RAF dropped more bombs on Germany than in any previous month and more than 30,000 tons fell on towns and cities, including Wurzburg in southern Germany. With a baroque palace, and rich in art and architecture, Wurzburg had little industry of wartime importance. According to the British ministry of economic warfare, it had only one potential target, a power switching station.

A BBC2 Timewatch programme, Bombing Germany, to be broadcast tonight, records that on the night of March 16, 226 Lancaster bombers took off for Wurzburg. The crews were briefed that the town was an important communications centre. Yet it was clear to them that their mission was a fire attack on residential parts of the town. Their bomb loads contained mainly incendiaries.

In just 17 minutes, they dropped nearly 1,000 tons of bombs on Wurzburg; 82% of the town was destroyed and almost 5,000 people were killed.

Timewatch found documents which show how Wurzburg found its way on to a target list once German industrial centres were virtually destroyed.

To use heavy bombers in every way possible to hasten a German collapse, new targets for area bombing were needed. In January 1945 Wing Commander Arthur Fawssett, intelligence officer for targeting at Bomber Command, made a list. Towns were first selected because they were easy for the bombers to find and destroy. One of the main selection criteria was that the towns had structural features that made them suitable or otherwise for fire attack. (Hugo's note: structural features particularly "suitable" were medieval tudor, wood framed houses.)

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Hamilcar 12/2/2009 8:17:13 AM

So we should address KSM in kind. Send the message BLUNTLY to people like him that we will send them TO HELL as a Moslem understands it. Hence the pork comment.

That is strategy. How we kill KSM under law is tactics.

Is that clear?

-DA

Its not the men who die, poster. Its the men who will see them die that we are after. We want to affect their minds in a way we want. THAT is why you for all your claims to be a professional are not. Its the simple and the obvious things like this, that you keep missing that shows you have no concept of how the real world works or how you can force another man to your will by using his own superstition against him.

Its called an exploit, much like what I do here, if you could see it at work.

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Hamilcar A little help for ther strategy challenged and tactically clueless. 12/2/2009 8:35:25 AM

Strategy is your objective. Tactics is the means.

Holder's and Obama's objective in the KSM trial is to domestically gain revenge on the Bush Administration. A tribunal would be speedy and fair with KSM buried in a holding cell upon conviction as he awaits his death for confessed war crimes. That is the Roosevelt Method. Kill them quick and sweep the security breach under the rug.

Holder chose a civilian trial where maximum publicity (and no death certain) is there to make possible the best opportunity to embarrass the US government and hopefully reveal some "crimes" of the previous administration; so that via that means (they were thwarted in Congress when they, the Obama crowd, tried earlier in committee to force Congressional testimony that they could use for criminal proceedings. Being worse lawyers than non-lawyer, Cheney, with no grounds for subpoena, they couldn't, as he told them all to go to hell.) they can initiate revenge prosecutions on 'political opponents" that way.

That's tactics. Notice that the good of the nation which should always be a strategic objective has no bearing in this?

Have a nice day.

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PlatypusMaximus 12/2/2009 9:37:04 AM

Japanese soldiers were of the same mindset...until they surrendered and became our friends and allies.

We still have those resources and they've been bought and paid for for decades. We can win with a single B-29. Percisely because it is the only thing that has ever worked.

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Hamilcar 12/2/2009 10:34:34 AM

Sentinel wrote;

Gimme a break. Let's see...we have Allied air forces targeting industries in cities compared to Luftwaffe Ju-87s purposely targeting what were obviously civilian refugee columns--in the hopes that causing mass casualties and chaos would delay retreating armies in France and Russia. Maybe the Luftwaffe was more circumspect in the West, but in Russia villages were obliterated that had no military purpose; Stalingrad was churned into rubble long after the Luftwaffe had already taken out anything of military significance.

Hugo writes:

Really? I'll point you to this, courtesy of Richard Norton-Taylor then,

"Bomber Command was ordered to attack Berlin, Dresden, Leipzig and other east German cities to 'cause confusion in the evacuation from the east" and "hamper the movements of troops from the west'.

and from the BBC,

The documents cast new light on the allied bombing campaign after the razing of Dresden in February 1945 when at least 30,000 people were killed, many of them refugees fleeing from the Russians.

In just 17 minutes, they dropped nearly 1,000 tons of bombs on Wurzburg; 82% of the town was destroyed and almost 5,000 people were killed.

Timewatch found documents which show how Wurzburg found its way on to a target list once German industrial centres were virtually destroyed.

The Americans also attacked targets of little strategic importance. A few days after the Dresden raid they launched an attack on mainly rural towns that had not been attacked before. These included Ellingen, a small town in Bavaria with 1,500 inhabitants, many of them farmers. Around 70 tons of bombs were dropped on the town. A note by US air force general Frederick Anderson to his press office notes that such operations were not expected in itself to shorten the war ... However, it is expected that the fact that Germany was struck all over will be passed on, from father to son, thence to grandson; that a deterrent for the initiation of future wars will defin

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