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Subject: NY Trial
appleciderus    11/13/2009 9:24:28 PM
Former mayor Rudy: ?Returning some of the Guantanamo detainees to New York City for trial, specifically Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, has now brought us full circle ? we have regressed to a pre-9/11 mentality with respect to Islamic extremist terrorism,? former Mayor Rudy Giuliani said in a statement. ?Khalid Shaikh Mohammed should be treated like the war criminal he is and tried in a military court. He is not just another murderer, or even a mass murderer. He murdered as part of a declared war against us?America.? Rudy said the same on Cavuto this afternoon. I think as soon as the sheilk's usefulness expires, so should he. Quietly, painfully, and anonymously. Not another 5 year trial with casualties.
 
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buzzard       11/27/2009 10:50:08 AM
My response is, they are successful because men like you don't oppose them.
 
Bollocks. I oppose them by means which have a chance of both happening and succeeding. You're pie in the sky solutions are about as useful as tissue paper for a bullet proof vest. 
 
Dreaming of a fantastic world in which perfect people work together in a perfect fashion is all well and good, but if you think history indicates that it can happen, well I'll direct you to the local university when you can talk to people who will try to convince you that perfect communism can happen.
 
Yes, market transactions exist now. Pointing that out does not make your case. They work within a framework of the rule of law. You seem to think a patchwork of private laws will have the same effect, and I don't buy it. 
 
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buzzard       11/27/2009 11:34:33 AM
Either have the humility to admit that you have little grasp of the topic at hand or cease to offer some superficial sulking that bears no relevance whatsoever to anything that I've written here.
 
I've had enough to the backhanded slams. I'm done here. You think your pie in the sky is real, when it is not and because I dare to disagree I'm some sort of culpable statist who oppresses people. I've made my case more times than has been worth my time for all the good it has done, and in exchange I get called names and laid blame upon for nothing I have done. You are a fanatic, incapable of understanding compromise, especially the one requires such that reality might work.
 
You can blurt more of your nonsense and attacks if you like. Have the last word if it makes you happy. It's pointless arguing with you for obvious reasons. If I don't agree, you can't imagine I comprehend your divine wisdom. As such either I agree or I'm evil and/or ignorant. There's nothing to be gained in discussing with you on this. 
 
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Hugo    Buzzard   11/27/2009 11:42:09 AM

Either have the humility
to admit that you have little grasp of the topic at hand or cease to
offer some superficial sulking that bears no relevance whatsoever to
anything that I've written here.

 

I've had enough to the backhanded slams. I'm done here. You think your pie in the sky is real, when it is not and because I dare to disagree I'm some sort of culpable statist who oppresses people. I've made my case more times than has been worth my time for all the good it has done, and in exchange I get called names and laid blame upon for nothing I have done. You are a fanatic, incapable of understanding compromise, especially the one requires such that reality might work.


 

You can blurt more of your nonsense and attacks if you like. Have the last word if it makes you happy. It's pointless arguing with you for obvious reasons. If I don't agree, you can't imagine I comprehend your divine wisdom. As such either I agree or I'm evil and/or ignorant. There's nothing to be gained in discussing with you on this. 



"Myth," "Fantasy," "Perfection," "Utopia," "Pie in the Sky."  I look forward to the next distraction from having to think.
 
When you compared Natural Rights to Utopia and Communism you displayed a serious crossing of cerebral wires.  If you think you have even come close to engaging in a useful rhetorical exercise then you are mistaken. 
 
Most of what you have managed until now, is petty "it never worked" "it can't work" "it's a fantasy."  What genuine contribution have you made to dismissing my ideas so far?  This is not debate.  The sum total of your points has been "it can't work so not worth trying."  Debate me - why can't it work? 
 
Don't disappear, toughen up man, it will do you good.
 
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sentinel28a       11/27/2009 2:49:29 PM
I'm drawing that conclusion, DA, because you state that you consider gang members and AQ warriors, just as you consider your fellow soldiers warriors.  There are many words I would use for Crips and Bloods and such, but "warriors" is not one of them.  "Common criminals" and "thugs" are the words I would use.  The same goes for AQ, except of course with the higher body count.
 
As for Truman, according to Richard Frank's Downfall, Truman wrote in his diary that he felt the atomic bombs would save "the kids" of Japan, since the Japanese would not sacrifice them as human bombs in the planned invasion.  I guess a modern equivalent would be "shock and awe," but it was not a terror bombing like Guernica, Rotterdam, Coventry, et al.  Maybe it's semantics, but it's still an insult to compare USAAF bomber crews to Hitler's Luftwaffe.
 
Hugo, the Luftwaffe raid on Coventry consisted of several waves.  The first wave went after water mains; others deliberately dropped parachute bombs on the roofs of Coventry to make it harder to fight the fires, and specifically timed their attacks in an attempt to kill firefighters.  Moreover, the aiming point for these bombs was the Coventry cathedral.  So I'll backtrack a little and say that it was apparently only Goering that wanted to kill British civilians, since that was the whole point of the Blitz--especially since Goering ended his somewhat successful campaign to destroy the RAF and attack Britain's aircraft manufacturers, instead attacking London with incendiaries merely to kill civilians.  In fact, the East End was deliberately targeted because it was known it would burn better.
 
 
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Hugo    Sentinel   11/27/2009 4:51:29 PM


Hugo, the Luftwaffe raid on Coventry consisted of several waves.  The first wave went after water mains; others deliberately dropped parachute bombs on the roofs of Coventry to make it harder to fight the fires, and specifically timed their attacks in an attempt to kill firefighters.  Moreover, the aiming point for these bombs was the Coventry cathedral.  So I'll backtrack a little and say that it was apparently only Goering that wanted to kill British civilians, since that was the whole point of the Blitz--especially since Goering ended his somewhat successful campaign to destroy the RAF and attack Britain's aircraft manufacturers, instead attacking London with incendiaries merely to kill civilians.  In fact, the East End was deliberately targeted because it was known it would burn better.

 


Coventry was not a terror bombing.  The first wave was aimed at the Rolls Royce aero engine production.   Even British historians acknowledge that the attacks on Coventry were militarily legitimate and not aimed at civilians.  Can you please provide evidence references that there was a targetting of Coventry Cathedral - the Cathedral may have been an orientation point but that is something different entirely - I am aware of evidence to the contrary of your statements only.  The death toll from all the attacks on Coventry numbered around 2000.  It cannot be compared with Dresden.
 
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Hugo    Sentinel   11/27/2009 5:27:03 PM
I guess a modern equivalent would be "shock and awe," but it was not a terror bombing like Guernica, Rotterdam, Coventry, et al.
 
As distasteful as it is to me to point this out, I believe it necessary to counter the inaccurate historical impression given above.
 
Estimated Dead:
 
Guernica:       250
Rotterdam:    850
Coventry:    1200
Dresden:   35000
 

 
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DarthAmerica    @Sentinel   11/27/2009 6:52:17 PM

I'm drawing that conclusion, DA, because you state that you consider gang members and AQ warriors, just as you consider your fellow soldiers warriors.  There are many words I would use for Crips and Bloods and such, but "warriors" is not one of them.  "Common criminals" and "thugs" are the words I would use.  The same goes for AQ, except of course with the higher body count.

THEY ARE WARRIORS BY DEFINITION. Just because YOU don't like them doesn't change the facts. Google up what the word warrior means. Common criminals don't organize to wage wars against nation states or take over areas of a city by force. Why are you arguing something so trivial? 

As for Truman, according to Richard Frank's Downfall, Truman wrote in his diary that he felt the atomic bombs would save "the kids" of Japan, since the Japanese would not sacrifice them as human bombs in the planned invasion.  I guess a modern equivalent would be "shock and awe," but it was not a terror bombing like Guernica, Rotterdam, Coventry, et al.  Maybe it's semantics, but it's still an insult to compare USAAF bomber crews to Hitler's Luftwaffe.

 I just showed you the proof that a chief objective was terror. It doesn't matter that Truman felt remorseful AFTER. And no it isn't an insult to compare the Luftwaffe to the USAAF. Both sides were following lawful orders of their respective countries in a war.

-DA 
 
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Hamilcar    I don't care about noise.   11/28/2009 7:38:37 AM












Aren't you the champion who says that the US administration knows what it is doing? It doesn't, but the point is that you also said  many tomes that attacks on US supply lines and depending on America's enemies to sdeciure those supply lines was not that big a deal, and now you change the tune on your hornpipe, that we should walk on eggshells bgecause our enemies might cut our supply lines.




You called someone a fool who indwerstood nothing for pointing this opbvious fact out and insuylted him every way possible.




Well, that is what is so funny. You admit he was right all along. What does that say about yourt ability to be unbiased and consistent in argument?




It means you are not consistent or logical in your presentation.l Superficial and not deep understanding of facts inderpoin a lot of the argument you made then and now.




Like a chameleon who changes his skin camouflage at the wrong time under a raven to suit the "argument" of the moment to win it on the basis of emotion, you left yourself wide open and thus the comedy.



   Simple isn't it. Egg McMuffin, tea, and deep laughter. Argue data if you can, then you'll do better.







 Yes it's very simple. You have demonstrated that you will spin and twist peoples words out of context when you lose a debate as you have again. We no you have no strategic level understanding because you proved not to understand the significance of Russia and Poland. You don't even know what the word encirclement means in a military context yet you used it. You thought it appropriate to arm merchants with missiles and have been repeatedly proven wrong by real world events. Now you think it means walking on eggshells because I'm not advocating butchering a man and wrapping him in bacon and tossing him on the streets of Pakistan as was suggested earlier. Well let me explain why thats probably the stupidest thing anyone ever suggested on this site with regard to the GWOT. A little map for you...







 



This is just a partial map that shows SOME of the Muslim nations in the M.E./SWA that host US military bases. Now the suggestion earlier was to mutilate a muslim and wrap him in bacon was it not? How do you think it would be perceived in this part of the world? Let me tell you how...







   






Or how about this...


   






 





...How do those images make you feel? HOw did they make Americans feel? It made violence against Muslims and Arabs SOAR in this country. And we don't have muslim supply convoys transiting our territory or bases. What you consider walking on eggshells would make Abu Gharib look like a minor incident. No Muslim host government would be able to allow us to base our forces there without fear of open rebellion. You would empower the Radical Islamic Clerics to levels that would seriously threaten our security. Those pinprick attacks against our lines of communication we have NO TROUBLE fighting off would turn into Host governments not being able to justify allowing us there in the first
 
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Hamilcar    I don't care about noise.   11/28/2009 7:45:40 AM
^1 Have you been keeping up with Al Qaeda videos?

 

Now if those idiots were dead, would they be recruiting?
 
Who understands war here?
 
Not you.
 
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DarthAmerica    @Hamilcar   11/28/2009 12:36:10 PM

^1 Have you been keeping up with Al Qaeda videos?



Now if those idiots were dead, would they be recruiting?


Who understands war here?


Not you.


I've never seen such an incoherent response ever of SP...lol. At what point did I argue AQ prime members should not be killed? NEVER. Thats yet another example of you twisting the truth and someone else's words when you are proven incorrect.



 I said mutilating a muslim and then insulting Islam by desecrating his body is STUPIDITY. You will never kill those AQ prime members if you further motivate the muslims they live with to keep hiding them. Duuh! From now on you just don't worry about who understands wars. Behind this and missiles for merchants it's clear you are blind as a bat on ANYTHING having to do with war at both tactical and strategic levels. You are an armchair general with a very bad google based knowledge of warfare. Finally, your assertion that Germany is the only other site is a clear indication you know very little about missile defense as well. But we already knew that since you honestly tried to argue that the GBI were there to counter Russia.


-DA 
 
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