I just feel sorry for the bloke an iron is not a choice location, bad ending again.

I agree with Bigfella on one thing: this is indeed the worst reply format on the Internet...

 

Anyhow, BF, since you're talking about the Bible supposedly subordinating women to men, I have to ask:  have you actually read the Bible?  In context?  Both Jesus and St. Paul are on record in saying that marriage is an equal union, and if women should devote themselves to their husbands, so should husbands devote themselves to their wives.  Jesus even preaches that just looking at a woman with lust in one's mind is tantamount to adultery.  If women are nothing more than sexual playthings, then you should be able to slobber over them all you want.  Similarly, when an adulteress is brought before Jesus to be stoned to death, Jesus says, "Okay, let the first one of you who hasn't sinned throw the first stone."  Again, not the actions of a religion who doesn't give a damn about women, especially given Islam's abysmal record when it comes to women's rights.  Jesus is also foursquare against polygamy and even divorce without cause.

 

Moreover, the Bible is full of examples of not only holy women, but holy women who were not shrinking violets.  Rebekah, who led the Israelites against the Assyrians, comes to mind.  She was nobody's subordinate.  Ruth helped save Judaism during the Babylonian Captivity.  Mary, the Mother of Jesus, is a prime example of unquestioning faith--she kept to her faith even as she watched her Son die one of the most horrible and demeaning deaths possible.  The Acts of the Apostles mentions that women were among the leaders of the early Christian Church.  Not exactly keeping them barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen is it?  The Church itself is referred to in the female.

 

If you're looking for why women got the short end of the stick over the centuries, I think you'll find that it was the actions of men, not God, that was the reason.  And women themselves--Susan B. Anthony and her suffragettes' biggest opponents were not men, but other women.

 

In my experience, most of the most ardent haters of Christianity are those who have never taken the time to actually figure out what it means, or have actually read the Bible--except for the parts that support their own preconcieved notions, of course.  I hear a lot about the part in Leviticus where it speaks of stoning gays, but rarely the part where Jesus instructs people not to judge, lest they be judged as well.

 

I don't think that's very fair.  I hate Naziism and Communism, but I still read Mein Kampf and The Communist Manifesto.  (Both were incredibly boring, BTW.)

 

 

 

My experience is that the most ardent haters of Christianity are those who were forced to suffer abuse in order to force an extremist version of Christianity down their throat during their childhood. Having experienced these types of Christians, I can understand where the hatred is coming from.

 

 

I can agree with that, FJV.  Having anything crammed down your throat--including atheism--during childhood is pretty much guaranteed to make you turn against it later in life.  In my personal experience, I had a friend whose parents were Woodstock-going, LSD-dropping, Ho-Ho-Ho-Chi-Minh-Is-Gonna-Win hippies.  He became more right wing than Tigertony.  Since Bill Maher hates religion as much as he does, I wouldn't be surprised to find some ultra-religious fanatics in his background.

 

All that aside, I don't think one should throw out the baby with the bathwater.  My grandmother was a fanatic Catholic that would make Torquemada blush, and she did her level best to instill in me that same sort of mentality.  I'm still a Catholic, but I'm hardly a fanatic.  The Pope and I would disagree with a great many things...though I'd still like to have a beer with Benny sometime.

 

 

I've always felt sorry only for those who never stopped to question things. No matter if you were overfed ideologies or religions as a child. A grown person should make one's own interpretation on things no matter what everybody else used to say. This isn't addressing anyone in particular in this thread.

 

The relationship with God should be personal, not inherited. I do think everyone's got one, even the 100% atheists.

 

Mikko

I agree completely, Mikko.  A priest once told me, "Anyone who doesn't question their faith at least once isn't human."  It's part of the process.  Speaking as a Catholic, I'm quite happy Martin Luther got pissed off and nailed up his 95 Theses.  The Church needed a wakeup call.  I just wish it could've happened without depopulating a third of the Holy Roman Empire in the process...