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Subject: Quik question: Has any sane secular individual committed random mass murder?
Le Zookeeper    11/7/2009 3:25:54 PM
Shouldn't groups with extreme religious views now be suspect and profiled if necessary?
 
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CJH    Without a ?Caste Analysis? India Can Not be Understood   11/7/2009 4:30:03 PM

Shouldn't groups with extreme religious views now be suspect and profiled if necessary?

Perhaps you consider these people... to need profiling, After all, I hear many of them are converting to Christianity.
 
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Zhang Fei       11/7/2009 4:39:54 PM
None of the above randomly shot people or lived in USA
 
Secular enablers of mass killings are fine as long as they are not Americans? Well, Timothy McVeigh was agnostic. In fact, the Wall Street bombing... is suspected to have been carried out by anarchists, who were probably atheists:
The Wall Street bombing occurred at 12:01 p.m. on September 16, 1920, in the Financial District of New York City. Thirty-eight people were killed and 400 injured by the blast.[1] It was more deadly than the 1910 bombing of the Los Angeles Times building by the McNamara brothers and would remain the deadliest bomb attack on U.S. soil for nearly seven years, until the Bath School bombings in Bath Township, Michigan.
 
The case was investigated for over three years; in the end, the Bureau of Investigation was not able to identify the perpetrators.[4] Decades later the FBI said "the best evidence and analysis since that fateful day of September 16, 1920, suggests that the Bureau's initial thought was correct—that a small group of Italian Anarchists were to blame. But the mystery remains."[4]

Anarchists were suspected, especially the Galleanists, Italian anarchist followers of Luigi Galleani. The Galleanists had a motive for planning the bombing, because they were incensed over the indictment for murder of two of their colleagues, Sacco and Vanzetti. Discrimination against immigrants and resident aliens, especially those from Eastern Europe and Sicily, increased notably after the attack, bolstering flagging public support for the Palmer raids. Investigators searched hundreds of stables to determine who had purchased the horse and wagon, but nothing was uncovered. The note[which?] was analyzed and its language structure found similar to other 'bomb' leaflets left at the scene by the Galleanists, but this by itself was insufficient. Despite vows that the police would catch the perpetrators, no charges were ever filed. The FBI rendered the file inactive in 1940, and the crime remains officially unsolved.[7]

One Galleanist in particular, Mario Buda (1884 - 1963), an associate of Sacco and Vanzetti whose car led to the arrest of the latter for a separate robbery and murder, is alleged by some historians, including Paul Avrich, to have planted the bomb as revenge for the arrest and indictment of his fellow Galleanists.[8] Buda's involvement was confirmed by statements made by his nephew Frank Maffi and Charles Poggi, who interviewed Buda himself in Savignano, Italy, in 1955.[8] Buda (at that time known by the alias of Mike Boda) had just managed to elude authorities at the time of the arrests of Sacco and Vanzetti, was experienced in the use of dynamite and other explosives, and is believed to have constructed several of the largest package bombs for the Galleanists, including a large black powder bomb that killed ten persons {including nine policemen} in Milwaukee, Wisconsin November 24, 1917.[7][9][10][11][12][13] Moreover, Buda was in New York City at the time of the bombing. However, he was never arrested or questioned by police. Interestingly in the San Francisco Preparedness Day Bombing of July 22, 1916, a sash weight bomb had been used which killed 10 and wounded 40.

There's a reason you don't hear of many non-Muslim terrorists acting in the name of religion. I can't think of any non-Muslim religion that exhorts its adherents to kill non-believers as a matter of duty. Raymond Ibrahim explains how Islam is unique* in this respect:

Moreover, concerning the current default position which purports to explain away Islamic violence—that the latter is a product of Muslim frustration vis-à-vis political or economic oppression—one must ask: What about all the oppressed Christians and Jews, not to mention Hindus and Buddhists, of the world today? Where is their religiously-garbed violence? The fact remains: Even though the Islamic world has the lion's share of dramatic headlines—of violence, terrorism, suicide-attacks, decapitations—it is certainly not the only region in the world suffering under both internal and external pressures.

For instance, even though practically all of sub-Saharan Africa is currently riddled with political corruption, oppression and poverty, when it comes to violence, terrorism, and sheer chaos, Somalia—which also happens to be the only sub-Saharan country that is entirely Muslim—leads the pack. Moreover, those most responsible for Somali violence and the enforcement of intolerant, draconian, legal measures—the members of the jihadi group Al-Shabab (the youth)—articulate and justify all their actions through an Islamist paradigm.<

 
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CJH       11/7/2009 4:58:01 PM
Should we forget Ted Kaczynski,  Bernardine Dohrn and Bill Ayers?
 
Say, that's right. Obama reportedly launched his political career in the living room of two terrorists.
 
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Hugo       11/7/2009 5:58:58 PM
What about hte Columbine students?  Naturally sanity could be argued but there is no evidence to support the notion that they were insane.
 
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Hamilcar    Joe Stalin and Mao tse Dung   11/7/2009 11:56:34 PM
 
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Hamilcar    Joe Stalin and Mao tse Dung   11/7/2009 11:58:41 PM


And of course, I forgot Robert McNamara. 
 
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sinoflex    Stalin studied to be a priest   11/8/2009 12:47:07 AM
What a shame Stalin didn't become a priest.
 
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Le Zookeeper    Some clarifications   11/8/2009 2:29:54 AM
1) I meant mass murder in US by US citizens against fellow citizens on an impulsive basis.(like Major Hasan and some others)
2) Communists are not secular, they are atheists- they burn churches down and imprison Lamas etc.
3) Clearly there is a link between religious indoctrination in some stage in life for significant time (Tim McVeigh was obviously varied in his beliefs, but did attend Sunday church a lot as a child) and love of guns being a predicator of a probable trigger happy nut.
4) Its not directed against religion or guns, its more on how to screen probable shooters. Of course further qualifiers will be legally necessary since this is the land of the free- just trying to keep it free and safe.
 
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sentinel28a       11/8/2009 2:37:17 AM
The Columbine shooters were agnostics.  No idea about the VT or NIU shooters, but I would guess the same.  Pretty much the other mass murderers on American soil shared at least two traits: young and Muslim.  Sad to say, but there it is.
 
Being raised religious doesn't give us much clue.  Hitler and Stalin had a religious upbringing, but so did the last two Popes.  Depends on the individual.  That's true in the Hasan case, though we have to ask ourselves why so many people going to radical mosques seem to get the urge to kill large numbers of people.
 
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sinoflex       11/8/2009 2:49:55 AM
Secular or not, it's all just a means to an end.  Regardless of how, these monsters arrive at an end state where it is possible to slaughter innocents en masse. 
 
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