Honor attack/killing log

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warpig 12/2/2009 10:59:24 AM

Name one Christian denomination in America or even the world whose doctrine includes excusing wife-beating. Name one Christian denomination in America or even the world that teaches that wife-beating is anything other than unacceptable. Name one Christian leader from anything other than a single-church "denomination" (to exclude the possibility of you naming some sort of cult looney ruling over some commune in the middle of nowhere) in America or even the world who teaches that wife-beating is anything other than unacceptable.

None of the above means that anyone or anypart of Islam necessarily does otherwise, but I think it does show pretty clearly that spouse abuse has no positive correlation with Christianity. Now if the same can be said about Islam--and I have no idea if it can or if it can not, as I have not studied the subject of spousal rights in Islam at all--then that would pretty clearly show that spouse abuse has no positive correlation with Islam, either.

But then, while you might like to, we aren't talking about spouse abuse (other than about the most extreme form possible), we're talking about honor killing of the wife, i.e., MURDER. Now find anywhere on earth where honor killing is allowed, and tell me where it is and what do the local religious denominations and leaders say about it? Zhang Fei already has done this to some extent. Once again, if honor killing has no obvious connection to Islam like how it certainly has no connection to Christianity, and instead is a cultural thing like some people were quoted as saying within the articles cited by Zhang Fei, then I would agree that it is misleading to say "moslem immigrants" and instead these murderers should be identified as "arabic immigrants" or "middle-eastern immigrants."

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Le Zookeeper warpig 12/2/2009 11:51:47 AM

I wasn't comparing religions as I am not an expert. But I will give it a shot. Islam treats women as property of husband, but does not support infanticide etc. Honor killings are a cultural phenom as opposed to a religious doctrine. Mr. Zhang seems to target such a small community in the USA and heap scorn on them for acts of a few. Its just that alcohol and drugs causes more domestic violence than honor killings even as a percentage of each population that this subject while of concern is essentially used to piss on minorities that are on todays s$it list.

Its just that I get this troublesome feeling when people start to profile by religion jews, Moslems, Christians whatever. Stereotyping is not cool. This is just another one. And there are Christian groups that are odd like some Amish and their approach to modern medicene, MOrmons and polygamy etc etc. SO Christian denominations have their deviants too though I have neither studied this in detail. However I do not debate that Christianity obviously seems to accord a better status to women.

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YelliChink 12/17/2009 2:48:33 PM

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1236642/Father-guilty-murdering-daughter-15-honour-killing.html

Father found guilty of honour killing of daughter, 15, after she fell in love with man from different branch of Islam

By Daily Mail Reporter...
Last updated at 4:14 PM on 17th December 2009

A father was today jailed for 22 years for the honour killing of his teenage daughter.

Mehmet Goren murdered 15-year-old Tulay for her doomed 'Romeo and Juliet' romance with Halil Una, an older man from a different branch of Islam.

After the teenager lost her virginity to her lover she was viewed as a 'valueless commodity' by her father - and had to be killed to restore the family's reputation.

Mr Unal was a Turkish Sunni Muslim but the Gorens were from the Alevi branch of the faith and an Alevi-Sunni relationship 'would not have been tolerated', the Old Bailey heard.

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smitty237 12/18/2009 1:08:31 AM

The only thing that troubles me more than the hatred that people like Nan and Herc (aka ZooKeeper, among others) have for Christianity is their absolute ignorance of it. They have strong feelings about Christianity and the role it plays in American society, and they feel that gives them license to say bigoted, hateful things about it at every given opportunity. That certainly is their right, but to their eternal discredit their remarks denigrating Christianity almost always betrays an ignorance of Christianity and what it teaches. With that being the case the only thing I can figure is that it isn't so much Christianity that they have a problem with.........it's Christians. I would consider myself a Christian, but I can relate to that sentiment to some extent.

Christianity is divided into three main branches: Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism. There are some divisions within Catholicism, mostly ethnic divisions among Orthodox Christians, and a whole bunch of divisions amongst Protestants. That includes offshoots like the Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Scientists, and Mormons, among others. I am aware of two major branches of Islam that cover most of the Muslims in the world: Sunni and Shiite. There are also smaller groups such as the Druze and the Sufis, but Shiites and Sunnis make up the vast majority of the Muslims. As such, they are a pretty homogeneous group. They may not like each other much in the Middle East, but they seem to be able to unite whenever they have to face infidels (such as Jews or Christians). I have not heard of Sunni and Shiite gangs fighting each other in the streets of the United States or Europe.

Honor killing may go on in other cultures in the world, but it seems to be especially prevalent in Islamic cultures. In the Middle East there is little or no distinction between culture and Islam since they have been intertwined for almost 1,500 years. The objective of the original post was to point out that this is also going on among the Muslim population in the United States. This was backed up with specific cases where Muslim girls have been killed by family members for being "too Westernized" or for dating someone outside of their faith (or branch thereof). I would think anyone would condemn this. Lord knows if Baptist dads started murdering their daughters for dating Muslim boys it would be all over the news, and I could guarantee that 99.99% of the Baptist ministers out there would be condemning both in public and from the pulpit. Yet for some reason honor killings amongst Muslims in this country gets little press. I suspect it is because news organizations fear being accused of being predjudiced against Muslims.

The comparison between honor killings and domestic violence in "Christian" cultures is specious at best. I am not aware of a single Christian denomination that condones domestic violence. In fact, they almost universally preach that it is a sin. Every state in the United States has laws against domestic violence, and in the two states that I have worked as a police officer there are laws that MANDATE that an officer make an arrest in domestic violence cases. Contrast this with Middle Eastern countr

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Le Zookeeper Some clarifications 12/18/2009 9:28:59 AM

#1 I do not "hate" Christianity. Every year the only religious days observed by me are Thanksgiving where I say grace with the rest on the table and Christmas, largely because I live in a Christian community.

#2 Nobody denied the scrouge of honor killing, but it should be covered by Child services and women supports systems, and primarily local community groups as some of these events are difficult to control without grossly invading privay.

#3 I did goto a Catholic missionary school (a lt of Catholic Portugese and Spanish teachers- fathers as they were called) I have lived a majority of my life in a Christian majority country and frankly I do not know what Christianity is, sure we hear the 10 commandments, revelations, blah blah but so what? it seems to be more of a story coerced into behaving like a religion. A religion has rules, practices and consequences as its primary features-not Santa.

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Zhang Fei 12/29/2009 9:12:52 AM

Not quite an honor killing, but charming..., nonetheless:

A seven-year-old Pakistani girl and her family have been given asylum in Canada after reports the child was raped and left to die when her Christian father refused to convert to Islam.

The identities of Baby Neeha and her family are being protected by immigration officials, said human rights lawyer Chantal Desloges and One Free World International, a church that was instrumental in getting the family here.

The family arrived in Canada on Dec. 12 after a three-year battle by organizers to spirit them out of danger in Pakistan.

They are living in the Mississauga area and will be visited next month by Immigration Minister Jason Kenney, who was so touched by the family's plight that he doled out a ministerial permit, of which he has only issued two.

Church founder Rev. Majed El Shafie said the family of seven have been hiding from extremists in Pakistan for about three years.

Baby Neeha, at the age of 21/2, was raped by the son of her father's employer and left to die by the roadside, he said. No one was arrested for the crime.

"These horrific events took place because her father, who was Christian, refused to give in to pressure from his Muslim employer to convert to Islam," El Shafie said.

The family went underground in Pakistan to hide from Muslim extremists who were seeking revenge for their non-conversion, he said.

"The family has lived for years in hiding and in constant fear of being discovered by the employer's family or Islamic extremists," El Shafie said. "We are thrilled that she's finally in Canada."

Organizers said the case touched Kenney who decided to help the family.

"This case truly broke his heart and he (Kenney) considers himself lucky to have it within his powers to intervene," Kenney's spokesman Alykhan Velshi said yesterday. "Fortunately, they are now safely in Canada."

Kenney found out about the family's plight six months ago, Velshi said.

"He personally issued a special ministerial permit," he said. "There were significant difficulties in getting them out of Pakistan."
The family can now apply for permanent residency on humanitarian and compassionate grounds, Velshi said.

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