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Subject: Mark Steyn: Limbaugh bad, Mao good
CJH    10/18/2009 5:33:25 PM
Mark Steyn: Limbaugh bad, Mao ... "So if I understand correctly: Rush Limbaugh is so "divisive" that to get him fired Leftie agitators have to invent racist sound bites to put in his mouth. But the White House communications director is so undivisive that she can be invited along to recommend Chairman Mao as a role model for America's young."
 
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Mikko    Thanks again..   10/22/2009 7:49:49 AM
..Panther & Sentinel
 
 Yes I think this is a problem for the US image. There is this strict dualism presented in mainstream entertainment industry of thoughtful, intelligent liberal and warhawk-ish unfeeling and greedy conservative right that has its supporter base in nearly illiterate gun crazy mullet-land.
 
That dualism always brought up the question that how is it possible for the Republican Party even excist!  I'm well aware of the disparity between reality and entertainment but wanted to point out the overall confusion regarding American right-wingers, their motives, values and hairstyles.
 
I have to admit it is kind of funny to see you guys speak of your political left as left. Come to Finland, you'll see what left really means. Your left-wingers are quite comparable to our conservative right. Your political left rarely even touches the views of our political center, that's how right they usually are from our perspective.
 
Mikko
 
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warpig       10/22/2009 2:07:46 PM

I have to admit it is kind of funny to see you guys speak of your political left as left. Come to Finland, you'll see what left really means. Your left-wingers are quite comparable to our conservative right. Your political left rarely even touches the views of our political center, that's how right they usually are from our perspective.


 
Your observation applies for all countries throughout the entire world.  Blessedly, we have not yet lost hold of enough of our founding principles to prevent being swept underneath the dominance of the Politics of the Left, like all the other nations already have/always were.  I suspect your observation regarding how different our political spectrum is from everyone else is likely to be much of the reason behind why we are so misrepresented to the world.
 
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sentinel28a       10/22/2009 2:28:32 PM
That and I think the American people isn't as dumb as Hollywood elites want to think they are.   For the last few years, Hollywood has churned out antiwar movie after antiwar movie--Iraq War bad, Republicans started it, Republicans like to watch soldiers die for oil profits, soldiers are dim children who signed up for the military because they fail at life and didn't realize the military occasionally goes to war where they get shot at. 
 
Every one of those movies bombed, and Hollywood directors just shrug and say, "Well, that's because the American people are stupid.  But maybe if we make one more movie, we'll convince them!"  Same reason why we see Will Ferrell touting health care in commercials, and Demi Moore swearing fealty to Obama--not the US, but Obama.
 
(Which has got to be the dumbest idea ever.  Ferrell's claim to fame are "comedies" featuring mainly toilet humor, booze, gay jokes and boobs.  And this is the guy we're supposed to listen to, a guy who usually plays idiots and acts like one in real life?  Why not have Letterman do a commercial on faithfulness in marriage, or Paris Hilton do a commercial on the value of higher education?  The Democrats should've gotten Christopher Walken to shill for Obamacare.  He'd just terrify everyone into buying it rather than face Walken wrath.)
 
Anyhow, Americans actually analyze and decide for themselves if something is right or wrong; granted, we get it wrong sometimes.  But certain elites like those in Hollywood and in Washington think we're dullwits who need to be led around by the nose.
 
Finland's left is worse than ours?  Holy crap...I'm surprised Finland hasn't been struck with mass famine.
 
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Mikko    Oh dear   10/23/2009 2:20:05 PM
Sweet allmighty this thread went freestyle! It's a good one, but one of the most incoherent discussions ever :D
 
So I have to keep it going. First pint of the weekend going down.
 
Don't you think it's rather disrespective to think that countries that have a more left ("lefter") political spectrum is automatically worse off than USA? I know things like that get said a bit tongue in cheek (and that's fine since I feel like responding accordingly) but nevertheless. What is there for me to envy in the US way? I mean, communism didn't work. That can be seen any time one visits an ex-commie country. It's as if it were November every day of the year in ex-communist countries. Point proven for the anti-communist folk.
 
But gimme a break. Sweden? Norway? Those places are clean, beautiful and safe and have one of the most liberal value spectre in the entire world. You can also make a big buck in those countries. Left, right, who cares. Elections switch the button back and forth every now and then but nothing really changes for the common guy. Finland is a bit gloomier place than those two, also less known, so I didn't use it as an example.
 
I just want to know why is US a good reference on how political spectrum should be aligned. Why is America the best? (apart from the fact that it's your country and you love it, as I love mine)
 
Mikko
 
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EvilFishy       10/23/2009 3:13:00 PM

One thing I have learned throughout the years is that Europeans haven no problems what-so-ever. They live in utopia. Or so I gather from hearing them speak.

In their minds, compared to the war zone and Nazi concentration camps of the USA, they live in what could be called heaven on earth (assuming heaven existed but that archaic notion no longer exists in Europe).

To hear them speak of making the big bucks, you would never realize they are removed of their property by their respective governments through excessive taxes, hidden or otherwise.

To hear them speak of their clean countryside, you would never realize just how dirty DC, New York, L.A., Atlanta, Myrtle Beach, etc actually are (I opened a window and am currently chocking to death on that damn clean air outside!).

To hear them speak, they do not have a crime problem where massive ghettos have arisen and large volumes of unassimilated foreigners have taken to the streets or attacked police officers or cut the heads off of people for merely having a different point of view.

To hear them speak, they do not have any infringement on their freedom what-so-ever except that in some countries they can be put in jail for denying a historical event, cannot purchase books that are BANNED due to their content, must request permission from their government to own a firearm, where they can, pay a tax to watch television, be detained by the police for ANY REASON they please and have your person and your effects searched with out due process or a writ or warrant from a judge, etc.

To hear them speak, they do not have a problem with people eating themselves to the point where they weigh 400 pounds plus and their teeth are not falling out because they either cannot afford to go to a dentist or the state dentists they are allowed to see is not in because he is off on vacation.

Nope you do not hear these things because they live in utopia and all is well with the world or at least all would be well if the USA would simply stop being a barbaric, wife beating, gun toting, bucked tooth, mullet sporting, goat screwing, seal beating redneck and join the rest of the civilized world.

 

 
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Mikko    @Evilfishy   10/23/2009 4:03:00 PM
Now ain't you an Evil Fishy!
 
If I'm the European in this particular case then let me correct myself. I didn't ask for sarcastic twists and turns about what Europeans think of themselves and their utopia. I wanted to know the things I should be envious about for not living in the States. 
 
Government taxing me to death? Isn't happening. Though the tax rates might be a bit high for everyone to like, it's not like I don't get to make it big. I just have to be that few percent better. And some things are quite cool with higher taxes. My kids get to meet the best professors in the country no matter how well I do in my business. I might fail but my kids still get to socialize with billionaires if they only do their homework. But that wasn't the point.
 
I didn't mention clean air. I smoke and pollute the air around me myself. I meant overall condition of the infrastructure, waste management etc. And didn't say those things were crap in the States. I just said Sweden and Norway are virtually spotless. 
 
Regulating gun ownership? Not having an automatic rifle in my locker sure made me unhappy. Besides, I'm much better off with an semi-auto in case of an zombie onslaught. Prevents me from spraying bullets around when in momentary stress situation. Seriously speaking, I would like to own a high-quality AK-47 derivative for fun and to maintain my basic training but it is tricky to obtain, even in semi-auto only. That does suck so all of this isn't 'sarcasm right-back-at-ya'.
 
And I lost your point in 400 pound people. Never seen one though my aunt is kinda fat.  Her cheeks are red and knees are sore. Teeth are ok.
 
By the way,  Europe is not one federal government and you know it. And, I don't think one bit ill of US and most posters here familiar with me probably already have noticed that.
 
Mikko
 
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YelliChink       10/23/2009 4:39:21 PM

I just want to know why is US a good reference on how political spectrum should be aligned. Why is America the best? (apart from the fact that it's your country and you love it, as I love mine)
 
Mikko


The US is not best for everything. However, the society of the US is not entirely subjected to government regulation and control. The freedom is waning for sure, but not quite dead completely, yet.
 
I have heard things about Nordic countries plus Finland. Yes, things are very different there and failed ideology could really work there probably because of the peoples and their respective cultures. However, even the largest country in NE, Sweden, has a population of only 8.5 millions. Just about 1/3 of the population of Taiwan, about a tenth of that of Germany, and 1/30th of population of the US. Multiply your population by 10 and add about 10% Russians with unlimited supply of Vodka, you'll get the picture. Don't ever think people around the world are just like you NEers are. Most aren't, and that's why the world is such a f_cked up place.
 
Without avid global trade eager for NE products, the economy there will grind to total halt very soon. In the end, the socialist dream up there can sustain quite long is not because it works, but rather because openness of other freer economy willing to pay for the deficit via trade.
 
Automatic firearm for civilian doesn't matter. Very few can afford regular range time firing things automatically, and bad guys get whatever they want by any means.
 
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sentinel28a       10/23/2009 5:16:35 PM
Part of it is that we live here, and we're biased.  Nothing wrong with that.  It's patriotism--my country right or wrong, but my country.  Smart people temporize that with "My country--sometimes wrong, and let's help make it right."  The far left tends to think "My country--always wrong."
 
Of my European friends, we have some give and take.  They think we're absolutely insane not to have universal health care, but also like the fact that our taxes are much lower--no VAT, for instance.  A Dutch friend of mine says Americans have too big of a military, and then adds "Thank God."  (He also likes to say we are the most greedy, money-obsessed, runaway capitalist country in the world, then goes out and blows $400 on CDs and DVDs because they don't have Best Buy in Holland.)  A German friend was talking about how clean the air was where he was from (Mannheim? Really?!), but when we got up to Yellowstone National Park, he was just blown away.  I think if most European common folk and most American common folk get together, they'd find plenty to like about their respective countries.  I know I treasure the three years I spent in Germany, and wish I could go back for a long visit.
 
Unfortunately, the powers that be in lot of European countries tend to be of the ultraliberal sneering variety, who look down on the poor backwards gun-toting maniac Americans, and demand that we be more like them, because Europe is where all the cool people live.  Well, until they face the threat of imminent invasion or war, and all of a sudden the US is everybody's best buddy.
 
 
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EvilFishy       10/23/2009 6:13:41 PM
---Mikko---Now ain't you an Evil Fishy!

If I'm the European in this particular case then let me correct myself. I didn't ask for sarcastic twists and turns about what Europeans think of themselves and their utopia.

I wanted to know the things I should be envious about for not living in the States.

You will get no such thing from me. I do not strive to create envy for other people. I know what envy does and where it leads.

My nation has many problems and these problems are festering but they are not nearly as a poorly as they are in some European nations.

I prefer to live with no strings or as few strings on my life as a FREE MAN. I do not like asking permission to do something especially when I am asking permission for a government stooge who does not know what the hell he is talking about.

I prefer to work for a living rather than steel from my neighbors.

I prefer to keep the bounty of my efforts and the toil of my sweat rather than subsidize the laziness or ineptitude of other people.

I have no problem giving to charity but that is charity and that is my choice. Having my government stick a gun in my face to take my money is not charity.

I prefer to own whatever I want to suite my own desires to any extent that I so desire. If I want to own a build a car, you have no business lecturing me on the matter and that is how I like it.

I just want to live my life and be left alone from the good intentions of my neighbors and that is how it once was in America and that is slowly slipping away.

---Mikko---Government taxing me to death? Isn't happening.

Really? Do you even know how much you pay in taxes?

Do you have a Value Added Tax?

Do you have excise taxes?

Do you have taxes on your food that you do not see when you go shopping?

Do you have excessive taxes on your energy costs? How much is 1 gallon of gas (4 liters)?

Who said your government was taxing you to death? Here is what I said: To hear them speak of making the big bucks, you would never realize they are removed of their property by their respective governments through excessive taxes, hidden or otherwise.

Your hyperbole aside, I can see how much money I pay in taxes because I see the paper receipt (be it a car tag or a 1040). Can you?

---Mikko---Though the tax rates might be a bit high for everyone to like, it's not like I don't get to make it big. I just have to be that few percent better.

How much do you pay of your income to taxes (as a percentage)? Include VAT, income, excise, sales, etc. Give me a ball park if you please.

---Mikko---And some things are quite cool with higher taxes. My kids get to meet the best professors in the country no matter how well I do in my business.

In this country, a kid can go to any institution he wants so long as he is willing to work for it and that does not require steeling money from Peter to pay Paul.

I prefer the choice and I would rather a child acquire a real education than spend thousands of dollars subsidizing educated idiots in some (not all) of the institutions found around the world.

---Mikko---I might fail but my kids still get to socialize with billionaires if they only do their homework. But that wasn't the point.

I do not need to pay a tax to socialize with someone regardless of their income.

To be fair, I do not socialize with billionaires but a few of my friends are fast approaching that financial marker and they can be found just about everywhere. Some people are quite astonished to find the gentleman sporting the economical Honda has a greater net worth than a good many driving a Lexus.

---Mikko---I didn't mention clean air. I smoke and pollute the air around me myself. I meant overall condition of the infrastructure, waste management etc.

Where did I say you had mentioned clean air?

I have as much clean water as I want.

The air is clean here (just outside of D.C.).

I have lived in some of the most congested cities in America (just left Atlanta not long ago) and I never had a problem with the air quality in any of those cities.

---Mikko---And didn't say those things were crap in the States. I just said Sweden and Norway are virtua

 
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warpig       10/23/2009 7:30:35 PM
Hey, who am I to tell you not to live that way in your country, or even not to want to live that way in your country?  If you like what you've got and if you think it's better than what you'd have in America then you certainly should stay there and not change a thing about Finland.  However, if you think like Samual Adams, for example, then you might find America (at least as originally established) more to your liking.  No biggie, that's up to you.  Finland for the Finns!
 
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.?—Samuel Adams
 
 
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