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Subject: Still no Russian Cooperation despite US concession
YelliChink    10/13/2009 1:17:24 PM
www.nytimes.com/2009/10/14/world/europe/14diplo.html NYT: Russia Resists U.S. Position on Sanctions for Iran ?At the current stage, all forces should be thrown at supporting the negotiating process,? he said. ?Threats, sanctions, and threats of pressure in the current situation, we are convinced, would be counterproductive.? Lavrov, Russian Foreign minister. www.nytimes.com/reuters/2009/10/13/world/international-us-russia-clinton.html NYT: Clinton Fails to Win Russia Pledge on Iran Sanctions [quote] A senior U.S. official had said before the talks that Clinton wanted to know "what specific forms of pressure Russia would be prepared for to join us" if Iran did not keep promises to the international community not to pursue nuclear weapons. [unquote]
 
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PlatypusMaximus       10/16/2009 7:44:48 AM
Krauthammer nails it today.
 
dubyadubyadubyadot
 
sj-r.com/opinions/x185901605/Charles-Krauthammer-Obama-s-Russian-debacle
 
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FJV    What concession?   10/22/2009 3:25:07 PM
The US opens 2 bases in Romenia and Bulgaria, so NATO/US expansion into East Europe continues.
 
You know, warnings about unneeded foreign entanglements. (hint, hit...)
 
 
 
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YelliChink       10/22/2009 4:49:20 PM

The US opens 2 bases in Romenia and Bulgaria, so NATO/US expansion into East Europe continues.


You know, warnings about unneeded foreign entanglements. (hint, hit...)


You have an excellent talent of linking unrelated things together.
 
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FJV       10/22/2009 6:11:38 PM
Not unrelated from the Russian viewpoint.
 
You guys are looking for unnecesary problems pissing off Russia while Russia controls major supply lines into Afgahnistan. Not to mention making the failed war on drugs part of the strategy in Afghanistan. Tagging pet causes to the war in Afghanistan.
 
You have to decide: Do you want a chance at winning in Afghanistan, or do you wanna piss off the Russians for very little gain? (Romania and Bulgaria will likely sell the US out for peanuts)


 
 
 

 
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usajoe1       10/22/2009 6:55:30 PM
 
Not unrelated from the Russian viewpoint.
 
You guys are looking for unnecesary problems pissing off Russia while Russia controls major supply lines into Afgahnistan. Not to mention making the failed war on drugs part of the strategy in Afghanistan. Tagging pet causes to the war in Afghanistan.
 
You have to decide: Do you want a chance at winning in Afghanistan, or do you wanna piss off the Russians for very little gain? (Romania and Bulgaria will likely sell the US out for peanuts)
 
LOL! I don't care about pissing off some criminal thugs. We have the power to do whatever is in our interest, and neither Russia, China or anyone else can do a thing about it. You don't appease criminals and thugs, you show them power, because that is all they respect. I see you have not learned anything from WW2. We did not win the cold war by being weak and worrying about pissing off the Russians.
 
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DarthAmerica       10/23/2009 2:53:47 PM

Not unrelated from the Russian viewpoint.

You guys are looking for unnecesary problems pissing off Russia while Russia controls major supply lines into Afgahnistan. Not to mention making the failed war on drugs part of the strategy in Afghanistan. Tagging pet causes to the war in Afghanistan.

You have to decide: Do you want a chance at winning in Afghanistan, or do you wanna piss off the Russians for very little gain? (Romania and Bulgaria will likely sell the US out for peanuts)
 
LOL! I don't care about pissing off some criminal thugs. We have the power to do whatever is in our interest, and neither Russia, China or anyone else can do a thing about it. You don't appease criminals and thugs, you show them power, because that is all they respect. I see you have not learned anything from WW2. We did not win the cold war by being weak and worrying about pissing off the Russians.


You should care. If you understood how dire the situation was and how much influence Russia has on the success or failure of all things ME/SWA you would care very much. This is not an episode of batman and robin, good guys vs bad guys. This is Geopolitics and all involved parties and VIGOROUSLY pursuing their own interest before the clock runs out or worse. No one is being weak. We are trying to avoid stupid needless mistakes that would substitute bravado for actual viable national strategy to secure a victory over the long term. The Cold war was won over a period of a half a century and with a series of give and take compromises that took patience and vision. What some of you suggest is very myopic and will compromise our security far more in the long term.
-DA 

 
 

 
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usajoe1    DA   10/23/2009 4:50:47 PM
Remember what they said about Reagan when he stood up to the Soviet Union?
 
The criminal Russian government has no power over us, we are not Europe, and we should not show any weakness to a thug like Putin, because at the end of the day power is all he respects. We should do whatever is in our national interest, and not worry about what Russia might think, because Russia already has that mentality, and it uses the powers it still has left. When Russia cuts off gas to Europe it doesn't care what the EU thinks. When Russia invaded Georgia, they did not care what the west was saying. When Russia sells weapons to rogue nations, it does not care what America thinks.When Putin started to kill free speech and democracy in Russia, he did not care what the west thought. When Russia was committing some of the worst human rights violations in Chechyna, it did not care what the west thought. You know why Darth? because Russia new it could get away with it, that is why.
 
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sentinel28a       10/23/2009 5:04:53 PM
I hate saying it, but Joe's right.  If we show weakness, Putin will take advantage of it. 
 
We've been fighting the war in Afghanistan now for nine years.  Putin's either been President of Russia or running the show behind the scenes that entire period.  During Bush's administration, we rarely if ever heard anything from Russia about closing air links or the 'Stans closing our bases.  Now, as soon as Obama is in office, Putin keeps talking about freezing us out, Uzbekistan closes K2, and all of a sudden are supply lines are in danger.  Why is that?  Why's Russia all of a sudden willing to see if they can use Afghanistan as a bargaining chip to keep us from turning the screws on Iran?
 
DA will of course vehemently disagree, but I think the reason why is because Putin knows he can shove Obama around.  If Obama can show Putin that he's not afraid of him, we'll probably start seeing the Russians be a little more willing to play ball with us--very much like how Kennedy proved to Khrushchev that he wasn't some little rich boy to be taken advantage of with Cuba.  (And to Obama's credit, I heard that Biden was talking about putting a military base in Poland--though if DA's right, that's really going to terrify the Russians with visions of NATO invasions.) 
 
We can only compromise when both sides are willing to do some give and take.  So far, we've given Putin no incentive to give, and plenty to take.  He's a bully--not insane, like Ahmadinejad; far from it.  We need to deal with Russia with that knowledge that we are dealing with a bully.
 
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DarthAmerica       10/23/2009 5:12:17 PM

Remember what they said about Reagan when he stood up to the Soviet Union?

 

The criminal Russian government has no power over us, we are not Europe, and we should not show any weakness to a thug like Putin, because at the end of the day power is all he respects. We should do whatever is in our national interest, and not worry about what Russia might think, because Russia already has that mentality, and it uses the powers it still has left. When Russia cuts off gas to Europe it doesn't care what the EU thinks. When Russia invaded Georgia, they did not care what the west was saying. When Russia sells weapons to rogue nations, it does not care what America thinks.When Putin started to kill free speech and democracy in Russia, he did not care what the west thought. When Russia was committing some of the worst human rights violations in Chechyna, it did not care what the west thought. You know why Darth? because Russia new it could get away with it, that is why.


Sigh...

It's not about "worry" what Russia thinks. It's about what they can do. You need to understand the current situation and the window of opportunity that has been opened to them as a result of the GWOT. Our armed forces are constrained by 3 things. Logistics, manpower and politics. We are committed to multiple theaters including two major regional conflicts with the strong possibility of a 3rd war with Iran possible. WITH THE BULK OF OUR GROUND COMBAT POWER DEPLOYED OR PREPARING TO DEPLOY, we are limited in our ability to FORCE our will in other theaters in the event of a conflict. It takes time to consolidate and reorganize combat forces during/after a conflict. You have to have the manpower in reserve for threats to national security. Finally, if you have been at war for a long time, you lose public confidence which means that the Commander in Chief and Congress ARE IN DANGER OF BEING VOTED OUT which is almost the equivalent of a decapitation strike if the new elected officials are in opposition to the war.

Again, you have to understand the bigger picture and not think of geopolitics like some fiction novel or TV episode. You need to understand the logistics and politics and the interest of the nations involved. This calling Putin a thug ect would never be taken seriously in a competent analysis. Putin is pursuing a national objective and he is using the means at his disposal to do that. The idea is to reach a mutually agreeable solution or failing that, compelling the other guy to cooperate. If we pursued strategy as you suggest we would be militarily compromised and you would see other nations rising up to take advantage of the situation. You need to OBJECTIVELY think this through and you also need the knowledge and skill necessary to interpret the data. This isnt something a layman is just going to fully grasp and have answers for.

-DA 
 
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FJV       10/23/2009 5:29:35 PM
Basically those supplies needed in Afghanistan are not gonna materialize out of thin air.
 
 
 
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