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Subject: Given the same applicant scores/backgrounds, blacks 5x as likely to get admitted to Ivies as whites
Zhang Fei    10/12/2009 7:50:08 AM
link (Quote) A recent study of the applicants to seven elite colleges in 1997 found that Asian students were much more likely to be rejected than seemingly similar students of other races. Also, athletes and students from top high schools had admissions edges, as did low-income African-Americans and Hispanics. Translating the advantages into SAT scores, study author Thomas Espenshade, a Princeton sociologist, calculated that African-Americans who achieved 1150 scores on the two original SAT tests had the same chances of getting accepted to top private colleges in 1997 as whites who scored 1460s and Asians who scored perfect 1600s. He also found some indications that while rich students make up an increasingly large share of the entering freshman classes, the top private schools appeared to be giving admissions edges to low-income minorities, but not necessarily low-income white students. The very richest students also generally had lower acceptance rates than similarly qualified, but less wealthy, students. Espenshade warned against concluding that his study proved that colleges improperly discriminated. For one thing, Asians, who make up less than 5 percent of the U.S. population, often make up nearly a third of the applicant pools to elite colleges. And they generally account for at least 10 percent of the student body. Meanwhile, low-income students and minorities make up disproportionately smaller shares of the applicant pools and, often, student populations. Harvard reported last year, for example, that 15 percent of its undergraduates were Asian, but only 7 percent were black, and just 6 percent were Hispanic. In addition, Espenshade's study didn't account for "soft" qualifications such as essays, recommendations, extracurricular activities, musical or artistic talents, or community service, all of which play important roles in admissions decisions. Nevertheless, some experts said Espenshade's findings seem likely to add more fuel to long-running criticisms of admissions offices. Even though the study reflects 12-year-old practices, "I have no doubt that circumstances have not changed in the interval between then and now," said Ward Connerly, who has spearheaded anti-affirmative action drives in several states. Connerly and other observers noted that college admissions policies have been controversial for decades. During the 19th and first half of the 20th centuries, African-Americans, American Indians, Jews, and other minorities were barred or severely restricted from many colleges. Civil rights laws and court rulings banned discrimination and encouraged colleges to reach out to long-disadvantaged students. Some of those efforts created resentment among white and Asian students who felt they were denied opportunities to make room for those whom they believed to be less qualified minorities. Sparked by a lawsuit filed by a white applicant who had been rejected from a medical school, the U.S. Supreme Court in 1978 ruled that racial quotas were illegal. Voters in California, Michigan, and Washington have since voted to ban many affirmative action practices. In recent years, Asian-Americans have fought admissions policies they believe artificially limited their numbers on campuses. In 2006, an Asian student who scored a perfect 2400 on the three SAT tests filed a federal complaint against Princeton alleging the university rejected him because of anti-Asian bias. The U.S. Department of Education is now examining Princeton's admissions policies. Although the schools Espenshade studied have not been identified, Princeton says it wasn't part of the set. And it says it doesn't discriminate on the basis of race or national origin. "The class of 2010 had a record 17,564 applicants for a class of 1,231. We admitted only about half of all the applicants with maximum 2400 SAT scores," says university spokeswoman Cass Cliatt. "Princeton considers factors such as interest in and demonstrated commitment to a particular field of study or extracurricular activity, exceptional skills and talents, experiences and background, status as an alumni child or Princeton faculty or staff child, athletic achievement, musical or artistic talent, geographic or socioeconomic status, race and ethnicity, any unique circumstances, and a range of other factors," she added. Currently, Asians make up 15 percent of Princeton's undergraduate student body. Mitchell Chang, a professor of higher education at UCLA, said Asians have long complained about the "penalty" they face when applying to colleges. But Espenshade's documentation of a threefold difference for similarly qualified students at elite private universities "is stunning. Really worrisome." Chang said Asian students might be disproportionately less likely to participate in certain kinds of extracurricular activities and that many Asian
 
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VelocityVector       10/13/2009 9:07:55 PM

I don't see discrimination against the able ending anytime soon. After all, the American people just produced the first affirmative action president just under a year ago. This is after affirmative action undergrad and grad degrees. These systematically discriminatory policies are why blacks will forever vote Democratic until the GOP also embraces discrimination in favor of blacks.

300 years continuous of being shut out from practically any meaningful engagement within the most successful, wealthy construct in human history, treated like animals or worse, while retaining dignity, genius and sense of self-worth despite the losses of misappropriation and blood and sufferings from false promises only has made black americans stronger in important respects than practically any other kind here.  We absolutely need the contributions of this population if we are going to move the ball forward as a nation.  One does not simply press a button and expect instant alignment because that utterly ignores three centuries.  I have been hampered by affirmative action at times and despise it's execution majority of times but can one of you propose an alternative remedy that is reasonably calculated to placed blacks to where they should have been had the stated purposes of our founding forebearers been fulfilled?  And for the record I consider myself slightly to the right of center in terms of national politics.  Yet I voted for this President and am experiencing tremendous buyer's remorse on some issues.  Let's hear from you.

v^2

 
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YelliChink       10/14/2009 1:21:28 AM
Silly me. This was V^2 was talking about:
 
 
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buzzard       10/14/2009 11:34:17 AM
300 years continuous of being shut out from practically any meaningful engagement within the most successful, wealthy construct in human history, treated like animals or worse, while retaining dignity, genius and sense of self-worth despite the losses of misappropriation and blood and sufferings from false promises only has made black americans stronger in important respects than practically any other kind here.  We absolutely need the contributions of this population if we are going to move the ball forward as a nation.  One does not simply press a button and expect instant alignment because that utterly ignores three centuries.
 
 I have a number of issues here:
A) Basing social policy on past grievances doesn't do anyone a jot of good. You screw over someone now for something their forefather did to someone else's forefather, and you are just causing a new set of grievances.  In fact you also make a business out of grievances. Look at that chump Gates. This is a man at the height of privilege, and he got in a tussle with a cop who was trying to watch out for his property, and then claims the cop is a racist troglodyte and is in the wrong. What a load of hogwash. The notion of making up for past wrongs is all well and good, but unintended consequences end up ruling the roost, and the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
 
B) If we are going to go all out to remedy past wrongs, where do we draw the line? Pick an ethic group in the U.S. besides the initial WASP settlers and you can find a host of grievances worthy of remedy. The railroads were built on the bodies of the Chinese and Irish. The Italians didn't go into crime because opportunity was beating down their door. The amount of unforgivable treatment meted out to the American Indian could be listed extensively.  How do we measure this? Are we going to play family tree games like in old Apartheid South Africa and design a system where your race decides your spoils? Are you black enough if you come to the U.S. from Africa, without any history of slavery? Do you still get spoils then? What fraction of my background has to be Native American before I get goodies? The owners of the most lucrative casinos(on a reservation) are from a tribe that miraculously re-appeared once casino gambling became the thing. What if I'm half black, I guess I'm all black then because I can get freebies?  I'm personally half hispanic (as if that means anything). I assiduously avoided ever listing it on applications for any admissions or benefits. I'll succeed or fail on my own.
 
 C) Then we get to really what matters, what is the actual impact of the legs up. Does a system like affirmative action actually benefit the recipients? While it has provided more lucrative positions by the force of law, has it actually lifted  people up over the generations (we're at least one or two in now)? Or has it actually created a system of diminished expectations and unmentioned disdain?
 
 
At the end of the day Affirmative Action has existed for almost forty years now. That's a pretty long time. Doesn't have to have an expiration date? Even if it did have positive effects (which I would dispute), don't you have to shut it off due to the negative effects eventually? If one has made the case that there were needed positive effects, didn't they actually do something permanent, or is the remedy just a band aid rather than a cure?
 
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