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DarthAmerica 9/20/2009 11:33:05 PM

-DA

OK, then whaddaya gonna do when Putin & friends decide it's time to send armor divisions into Georgian and Ukraine in order to persuade them to rejoin the Russian Empire and submit to Vladimir the Great?

First thing I'd do is wonder what decade you were talking about because the Russians COULD BARELY muster and logistically support a single division in Georgia. Second thing I'm going to do is wonder when you people are going to take the political bias and preconceived notions out of your post and actually get familiar with the situation paragraph before you jump into the mission and execution.

-DA

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DarthAmerica @yellichink 9/20/2009 11:36:46 PM

- And they expect the US to pay in blood for the F-U they raise.

That is exactly simialr to a little guy in a bar picking a fight and expecting his big "friend" to defend him and take the punches coming

from the guys he pissed off. I have seen that trick so often it's not funny anymore. I say, good for the US for not buying into that one.

- Ukraine and Georgia are ruled by people very similar to Putin. Helping one Putin to against another is not a good idea IMHO.

Then tell me why Polish and Czech soldiers were sent to Iraq? Do you think they send their sons and daughters to Iraq out of belief that the war is justified? Or do you think they did so because this is the form of payment the did during GWB admin in exchange for US military presence in the homeland? They risked so much to do this that they pissed at then leftist government in France and Germany.

WHY? Because of things like this......

It's got nothing to do with those missiles.

-DA

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sentinel28a 9/21/2009 12:49:01 AM

Second thing I'm going to do is wonder when you people are going to take the political bias and preconceived notions out of your post and actually get familiar with the situation paragraph before you jump into the mission and execution.

You first, then I might consider it.

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DarthAmerica @sentinel 9/21/2009 2:25:37 AM

You first, then I might consider it.

Seriously, I don't do the ad hominem jibber jabber anymore. It's a waste of time to argue about whether or not the Earth is flat. The only thing more remarkable than how misinformed you are is the amount of conviction to things you cannot possibly make logical sense of. I know these things I'm writing as 100% fact and professionally speaking. This is not about Obama, Republicans or Democrats. This is about whats in the interest of the United States. Because you don't understand that, you are unable to connect the dots here and it's why such threads as this end up as a I hate xPOTUS debate.

-DA

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YelliChink 9/21/2009 2:39:15 AM

-DA

Where did you get the idea that Russia can bearely muster logistic support of a single division in Georgia? They have three divisions in Abkhazia alone. The actual size of combat troop in South Ossetia is acutally larger than two divisions and commanded by 58th Army.

At least Georgians are willing to fight. Had Putin send armor divisions to Kiev, you'll see how Ukraine unit dissolve like legions of Markus Antonius.

Oh, we are politically bias, so say you. Ouch, that's ad hominen.

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YelliChink 9/21/2009 2:52:54 AM

-DA

So far this thread is about policy debate rather than POTUS debate until you bring the topic up. And you are already using ad hominen by accusing us being bias. Of course we are bias, we ALL are bias.

You know it's a shame to break promise and lease your allies alone.

You know Putin's KGB gang is up to no good and need to be contained until change of regime.

You know that Georgia and Ukraine have no defense against the rebuilt Russian military.

And you know that both Poland and Czech tried very hard to swing US policy not without a reason.

Is it a good policy? Or a convenient policy in the short term? Unfortunately, two wrongs don't make a right. The US shouldn't make a promise that it can't keep from the beginning, and, shouldn't unilaterally withdraw from the promise and let the allies to take all the consequences.

Also, your address on Russian "worries" is indeed worrisome. You adopt their position even before acknowledging other worries of parties are equally important. How can you stand for yourself when you think other people have more right than you do? Isn't that a mental disorder?

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YelliChink 9/21/2009 2:56:00 AM

WHY? Because of things like this......

It's got nothing to do with those missiles.

-DA

1. The US wants all allies buy F-16. They are doing you a favor by buying F-16, not the other way around.

2. Czech Republic bought JAS-39 instead, how'd you explain that?

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sentinel28a 9/21/2009 3:54:46 AM

You first, then I might consider it.

-DA

You're absolutely perfect, DA? Great Mother Gaia. I am indeed so sorry, Great One. I did not notice it was you. Please, smite me with your mighty thunderbolt, oh smiter of smites. I am so sorrowful that my college degree and various honors pales in comparison to your record of Complete and Total Omniscience. I am indeed a sinner for questioning the Great Darth. I should be flogged with ramen noodles and then renditioned to Canada.

Read back your post to yourself, and imagine if I had said that about a Republican or anyone else. Yeah, you'd be calling me on it big time. But I forgot, your god Obama never makes mistakes, because he and you happen to share the same color. (Does that make me a racist? I can't keep track anymore. I think if it's "I think Obama might be wrong," I'm a racist. Or a heretic. Can't remember.)

Seriously, Darth, you've outdone yourself with pure snark. Does Acorn give special training for that, or were you born with natural talent?

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DarthAmerica @sentinel 9/21/2009 5:12:51 AM

It's not me you are questioning. It's the security interest of the United States...

Read back your post to yourself, and imagine if I had said that about a Republican or anyone else. Yeah, you'd be calling me on it big time. But I forgot, your god Obama never makes mistakes, because he and you happen to share the same color. (Does that make me a racist? I can't keep track anymore. I think if it's "I think Obama might be wrong," I'm a racist. Or a heretic. Can't remember.)

Hilarious. But here lies the true nature of your problem. If you actually read what I've been telling you since before the 2006-2007 Surge/NIE timeframe, you would see that I've said over and over including in this thread that this HAS ZERO TO DO WITH OBAMA. In fact he is continuing the FP of the Bush Admin with regard to the handling on Russia and Iran. Any POTUS would have done so for lack of alternatives. DO YOU NOT GET THAT? That's what makes the Russian position so strong in the short term. Key words, SHORT TERM. As far as the Russians are concerned they are in a near death spiral and 1990-1991 was their Praxis event. The GWOT opened a VERY BRIEF AND NARROW window of opportunity for the Russians to make a last ditch effort to stall the inevitable demise of the Russian sphere of influence as we know it.

With the bulk of DoD ground combat power locked in mortal combat in the ME and SWA the Russians knew they could use the remnants of the very limited Soviet era military power they had to create political upsets in places like Georgia where they could barely get a division together and could not even coordinate an effective combined arms offensive. Because of our commitment we are limited with regard to deploying military force in support of allies and potential allies along the Russian periphery. But OIF/OEF won't last forever...

As we untangle ourselves from the GWOT, the Russians with their limited conventional force will not be capable of intimidating countries like Georgia. This means what ever they intended to do had to be done NOW. Realizing this and to gain leverage the USA under GWB proposed to put U.S. Military boots on the ground in Poland. Something that would be completely unacceptable to Russians for reasons I've already covered. With Iraq pacified, that leaves Iran and Afghanistan as the last two hot spots that could tie up the DoD. Trading away the GBI's in eastern Europe will help in removing the Iranian threat through getting Russian support on the UNSC and lessen the chance of an expanded regional war. That is why both GWB and then BHO are pursuing this strategy.

Seriously, Darth, you've outdone yourself with pure snark. Does Acorn give special training for that, or were you born with natural talent?

Silly comment.

-DA

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Nasty German Idiot 9/21/2009 9:52:59 AM

Recent Spiegel Article on the case:

[XXX]ttp://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,649688,00.html

09/17/2009

Poles React

Warsaw Fears Washington Losing Interest in Eastern Allies

By Jan Puhl

US President Barack Obama's decision not to construct a missile shield has hit Warsaw hard, but the move was not unexpected. Now Poles are seeking to convince the administration to at least install Patriot missiles in the country.

Sept. 17 is not an auspicious date for Poland. In 1939 the Red Army marched into Poland from the east on September 17 and Hitler and Stalin divided the country between themselves. Up to today, Moscow still hasn't issued a clear apology for the attack. Exactly 70 years after the invasion, Poland is being forced to accept another defeat: US President Barack Obama has shelved his plans to build a missile shield in Poland and the Czech Republic.

The Americans wanted to build the silos for interceptor missiles intended to intercept any nuclear warheads that might be fired by rogue states in Slupsk, in eastern Poland. A related radar station was planned for the Czech Republic. On thursday, Washington announced that those plans were on ice in favor of a more short-range system centered on countering Iranian missiles.

Poland's Law and Justice Party sees it differently, and is suggesting Obama abandoned plans for the weapons system solely to improve ties with Moscow. The party is accusing the government of liberal Prime Minister Donald Tusk of not pushing ahead energetically enough to promote the missile plans.

Critics: Tusk Didn't Do Enough

Polish Defense Minister Radek Sikorski had reached an agreement with then-Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice over the stationing of the missile defense system, but it still hasn't been ratified by the Polish parliament. This proved to be a serious error, Witold Waszczykowski, who had negotiated with the Americans on behalf of the government in Warsaw. He accuses Tusk's government of not doing enough to ensure that Washington adhere to th its obligations in the agreement.

Polish opposition politicians are now concerned the country will lose the special status in Washington that it worked hard to get. And it wasn't just right-wing Polish governments who fought for it. Instead of purchasing European fighter jets in 2003, for example, Poland instead opted for American fighters. Warsaw immediately rallied to Washington's side during the Iraq war and even took up command of its own occupation zone along the Tigris River. But now, under Obama, many in Warsaw fear that US interest in its Eastern European allies is waning.

Jaroslaw Gowin, with Poland's governing Civic Platform party, was more sanguine. He said Obama's decision had been made independently of Polish sensitivities. Nor was it surprising. It has been clear since Obama's election that the chances were no longer good for the construction of the missile shield.

A Majority of Poles Oppose Shield

Unlike its conservative predecessor, the Tusk government hasn't made the weapons system a central foreign policy issue. In fact, Tusk may even support Obama's decision. Ultimately, Tusk wants to get re-elected as president, and the missile shield has proven extremely unpopular with voters. More than half of Poles surveyed say they are against it, with only 29 percent supporting the shield.

Warsaw's priority now will be to salvage as much military cooperation with Washington as it possibly can. In exchange for allowing it to place missile shield installations inside Poland, Washington had pledged to rearm the Polish army and possibly to station Patriot defense missiles in the country.

Waszczykowski believes negotiations will be difficult. "We can't just stand there and scream: 'Missiles or death'." Warsaw's only security is the deal signed by Sikorski.

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