Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
United States Discussion Board
Sign In   Return to Topic Page
Subject: Poland and Czech kicked in the nuts by the US
YelliChink    9/17/2009 10:33:06 AM
edition.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/09/17/missile.defense.shield/index.html [quote] But Biden explained the logic of doing so, saying Iran -- a key concern for the United States -- was not a threat. "I think we are fully capable and secure dealing with any present or future potential Iranian threat," Biden said in Baghdad, where he is on a brief trip. ... "This is catastrophic for Poland," said the spokeswoman, who declined to be named in line with ministry policy. advertisement Poland and the Czech Republic had based much of their future security policy on getting the missile defenses from the United States. The countries share deep concerns of a future military threat from the east -- namely, Russia -- and may look for other defense assurances from their NATO allies. [unquote]
 
Quote    Reply

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest

Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27   NEXT
YelliChink       10/14/2009 4:36:58 PM
Russian leaders, i.e. former KGB gang, know where their interest is at. They want to trick the US into military action against Iran. They have everything to gain and nothing to lose from that.
 
Had military action the only option for the US:
 
Oil price goes up.
China will be more dependent on Russian oil than Middle Eastern source.
Muslims hate the US even more.
The US military is drawn into yet another quagmire.
European nations buy more Russian oil and gas at higher price.
Possible US concessions on Ukraine, Georgia and Central Asia.
 
Why do they want to jump the ship to support US position on Iran? They have nothing to gain and everything to lose from that position.
 
Quote    Reply

DarthAmerica    @sentinel   10/14/2009 6:41:10 PM


I'm sure Russia can give us quite a bit.  The problem is, they haven't.  Why is that?  Don't say "It was Bush's fault!" either, because Obama's getting even less than Bush did.


WRONG. And if you stop looking through the misguided prism partisan anti-Obama politics and start looking objectively you will see that. Or you can just read what I write. We have secured cooperation on our OEF logistics, SS-26 not deployed to cover Poland and the Iranians aren't getting the S-300's they want. 



If the ABM system was useless, why did it bother Russia that it was there?  Is the Strategic Rocket Forces so poor that 20 interceptors would completely end the deterrent threat?  Does Russia feel that threatened by Poland and the Czech Republic, or does the world once again have to deal with the Russian paranoia complex that someone's going to invade them?  (If that's the case, I'd be a bit more worried about two million or so Chinese soldiers than NATO, which has, what, a tenth of that?)


Because those ABMs would mean PERMANENT US MILITARY PRESENCE in Poland which also happens to be a key avenue of approach if you wanted to invade Russia. You don't plan for intentions, intentions change, you plan for capability. You need to understand that. With a physical presence there, the DoD can more rapidly expand in addition to creating stronger US-Polish military ties.


Great Gaia.  World War II is over and Hitler is dead.  The Russians can retire the German boogeyman.  Unless, of course, there's political mileage to be wrung from it.  Hey, it worked for Stalin...



 Retire the German boogeyman? Do you have any idea how that sounds if you are Russian? BTW, Germany is beginning to re-emerge into a global power again and it's FP is becoming more independent of the USA. They have the technological saavy and industrial capacity to militarily threaten any country on the Eurasian land mass. Thats why can cannot plan against intentions. The Germans invaded Russia before after signing a non aggression pact. This is very basic military history and science.



As I recall, DA, your policy is pretty much "give Russia what it wants."  I'm just waiting for the day Russia demands something we don't want to give it.  Not that I anticipate that being a problem with Neville Chamberlain Barack Obama in office.




No, I don't make policy. The policy of the USA is to secure Russian cooperation to help avoid the alternative. You need to view this objectively.










-DA 



I am viewing it objectively.  What I see is an ex-KGB thug who sees weakness and is determined to exploit it.  Since you, DA, can never admit that your guy Obama can ever, ever make a mistake, remove the beam from your own eye before you tell me to remove the splinter in mine. 

No, you aren't. Notice the highlights. NOTHING I'm saying has anything to do with Obama. Any US POTUS would be COMPELLED to act in the same way with VERY LITTLE ROOM for deviation. In fact Obama is simply picking up where GWB left off. Nothings changed.

As for the S-300 sale, according to UPI, Medvedev has only promised to take it "under review," apparently predicated on Israel withdrawing its support for Georgia and Azerbaijan.  The Russians are using the S-300 as a card against the US, as well--we stop "interfering" in Georgia, they don't sell the S-300.  That U
 
Quote    Reply

sentinel28a       10/15/2009 3:20:34 AM
Is this nonsense, DA?
 
 
Yeah.  Saying that they reserve the right to preemptively launch nuclear war against any aggressor, conventional or nuclear armed, doesn't exactly fill me with confidence in Russia's intent or capability.
 
Oh, and in case it escaped your attention, DA, they're also griping about NATO expansion, intensified military activities, and management of US strategic weapons.  The first I can understand (other than the fact the Russians should ask themselves why the Ukrainians feel the need to join NATO).  The second is due to Afghanistan, but either the Russians are using that as an excuse, or once more, we're dealing with paranoia.  The third is none of their damn business.  Russia can test and develop nuclear weapons, but the US apparently can't.  Reminds me of the halcyon days of SALT II, when Brezhnev insisted the Tu-22M wasn't a strategic bomber and built hundreds, while Carter cancelled the B-1 as "too expensive."
 
Why didn't this happen under Bush's watch, DA?  Why did Russia wait until the waning days of the Bush administration to take a swipe at Georgia?  And why are they, all of a sudden, rattling nuclear sabers?
 
Show a thug weakness, and he will try and rob you.  You're right.  I can't be objective.  It's hard to be when you see an incompetent rookie in the White House making avoidable mistakes that are going to get Americans killed.
 
The ironic thing is, as usual DA, I'm really hoping you're right and I'm very wrong.  What scares me is that I don't think that's true.
 
Quote    Reply

sentinel28a       10/15/2009 3:26:48 AM
One other thing I'd like to add.  You say I don't understand logistics.  I may not have the details down, but I know that it's a damn stupid idea to invade Russia--considering that the only people ever to pull it off are the Mongols, and even then.  The Teutonic Knights tried it, Sweden tried it, France tried it, and Germany tried twice.  Everyone's lost because of logistics (and some damn good fighting on the part of the Russians, once they got their act together).  For that reason, no one wants to invade Russia.
 
Someone want to inform the Russians?  Because apparently they don't understand logistics either.  NATO is lucky right now if it can resupply a relatively small force in Afghanistan, and the Russians are worried about a NATO invasion?
 
If they'd grow up and realize no one wants their godforsaken country, they might sleep better at night.  Either that, or NATO provides a convienent boogeyman for Putin, just as it did for the premiers of the Soviet Union.
 
Quote    Reply

Ezekiel    Appeasing the dictators   10/15/2009 7:07:44 AM
that's how appeasers do it!!! reject common sense, historical minded policy....rather substitute for pie in the sky promises, signed peaces of papers, so they can come back to their peace loving democraatic constituents with "peace in our time". this hand shaking policy serves no one, except the ego's of those leaders who believe that personal charm, gravitas and rationalism can save the day....history show's how dastardly mistake and hubristic this approach really is.
 
so American friends like Ukraine, georgia, poland, czech, Israel, taiwan etc get the shaft so that Obama can remake his world order in his own image, and give up the smaller nations in order to have the nobel committee clapping their hands and the large dictatorhsip countries and mulsim bloc happy....for now!
 
The obama freak show continues and American long-term interests are shoved aside for the convenience of an easier present. 
 
Quote    Reply

usajoe1       10/15/2009 5:51:19 PM
Yeah.  Saying that they reserve the right to preemptively launch nuclear war against any aggressor, conventional or nuclear armed, doesn't exactly fill me with confidence in Russia's intent or capability.
 
This is really aimed at the only true threat to Russia, and it's not NATO but good old China. The PRC is the only real long term threat to the Russia homeland, and without nukes Russia can't stop the PRC.
 
Quote    Reply

DarthAmerica    @sentinel   10/16/2009 2:10:49 PM

Is this nonsense, DA?

 

 

Yeah.  Saying that they reserve the right to preemptively launch nuclear war against any aggressor, conventional or nuclear armed, doesn't exactly fill me with confidence in Russia's intent or capability.

 We have said the same thing! Nothing is new about that except that the Russians, other then to attack a MUCH smaller neighbor with a division sized element, have no sustained conventional power projection capability to speak of. The nuclear deterrent is all the have.

 

Why didn't this happen under Bush's watch, DA?  Why did Russia wait until the waning days of the Bush administration to take a swipe at Georgia?  And why are they, all of a sudden, rattling nuclear sabers?
 
Show a thug weakness, and he will try and rob you.  You're right.  I can't be objective.  It's hard to be when you see an incompetent rookie in the White House making avoidable mistakes that are going to get Americans killed.
The ironic thing is, as usual DA, I'm really hoping you're right and I'm very wrong.  What scares me is that I don't think that's true.

IT DID HAPPEN UNDER GWB watch!!! The Russians didn't all of the sudden just wake up and initiate these actions. THEY ACTED to take advantage of the situation GWB created as a result of the GWOT. I told you about this over two years ago:                                           h**p://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/30-97935.aspx

 
Quote    Reply

DarthAmerica    @sentinel   10/16/2009 2:56:22 PM

One other thing I'd like to add.  You say I don't understand logistics.  I may not have the details down, but I know that it's a damn stupid idea to invade Russia--considering that the only people ever to pull it off are the Mongols, and even then.  The Teutonic Knights tried it, Sweden tried it, France tried it, and Germany tried twice.  Everyone's lost because of logistics (and some damn good fighting on the part of the Russians, once they got their act together).  For that reason, no one wants to invade Russia.
 
Someone want to inform the Russians?  Because apparently they don't understand logistics either.  NATO is lucky right now if it can resupply a relatively small force in Afghanistan, and the Russians are worried about a NATO invasion?
If they'd grow up and realize no one wants their godforsaken country, they might sleep better at night.  Either that, or NATO provides a convienent boogeyman for Putin, just as it did for the premiers of the Soviet Union.


History is full of ill considered wars. Again, that's why I keep telling you that you cannot plan on the current INTENT of a nation but rather what they are capable of. Securing Poland and the Ukraine would allow for lillypad bases that logisticians will study, have studied,and these bases could if necessary be rapidly expanded into robust forward operating bases and supply centers.

Due to geography, with Poland and Ukraine secure, the Russian position is indefensible considering the state of the Russian conventional forces unless nuclear weapons are used. The United States and Europe(particularly Germany) have the overwhelming technological and industrial capacity advantages that Russia would have no hope of matching. That combined with the terrain would FOREVER render Russia militarily irrelevant in Europe, severly complicate and degrade the economic leverage they have and make Moscow itself indefensible. IT DOES NOT MATTER whether or not a POTUS or Chancellor would actually act on it or not. That it could be done is an existential threat to Russia. Just like IRBMs in Cuba were to the United States, just like Iran with deliverable nuclear weapons would be to Israel. It does not matter what the intent is at that point.

US foriegn policy and diplomatic progress has had the same affect as would a successful full offense from NATO against the non Russian former Warsaw Pact members. It doesn't matter that shots weren't fired to achieve it. I renders the Russians militarily impotent based on the Russian strategy of establishing buffers which are necessary to allow them not to be at disadvantage due to terrain. Thats how it looks if you are Russian. You need to understand that. CAPABILITY, NOT INTENT. That's how it's done.
Regards
Brandon
 
Quote    Reply

DarthAmerica    @sentinel   10/16/2009 2:59:32 PM
Feel free to keep this issue open as long as you have to until we see eye to eye or agree to disagree. It took a lot of research and personal experience before this stuff became clear to me. And even when I'm discussing it, I still learn to see it from different points of view.
 
-DA
 
Quote    Reply

DarthAmerica    So much for kicked in the nuts...   10/23/2009 2:56:17 PM

More Polish Troops in Afghanistan
Staff Journalist... | 23rd October 2009

This article has been read 83 times


Poland is to send 600 more troops to Afghanistan this spring

Poland is to send 600 more troops to Afghanistan. A military source told Gazeta Wyborcza that the U.S. is pressing its allies to increase the number of troops, and Poland is to have 2,600 in Afghanistan this spring.

The source revealed that Poland's current mission ends on 13 April, but the U.S. commander in Afghanistan, Stanley McChrystal, wants the number of allied troops to increase by 10 percent, or about 40,000. The source added that 2,600 troops, with 200 in strategic reserve, is the limit of Poland's current capabilities, and there will already be difficulties with gathering the extra 600.

General Waldemar Skrzypczak, the former commander of Poland's land forces, told Wyborcza, "The Americans are pressing for an increase because they consider our province of Ghazni as their 'rear'. They don't want the Taliban escaping to Ghazni and gathering strength there as they escape the U.S. offensive."

NATO is also urging allied countries to increase their deployment, but wants more civilians in Afghanistan as well. That is why a part of Poland's additional 600 troops are to be civilians. General Egon Ramms, the commander of NATO combined forces in Brunssum, Holland, told Wyborcza, "We need your specialists in economy, agriculture, industry, construction. Because we won't win this operation with the army alone."

In the lead up to elections in Afghanistan this summer, the Taliban intensified its attacks. As the number of Polish soldiers lost in combat since 2002 has increased to 14, the political and public debate on whether Poland should send mor... picked up. But now, after relations with the U.S. were evidently repaired by U.S. Vice President Joe Biden'... earlier this week, Poland seems willing to cooperate closely in Afghanistan again.

So far, the only other country that plans on sending more troops to Afghanistan is Great Britain, with Gordon Brown recently pledging to increase G.B.'s contingent of about 9,000 by 500. Meanwhile, Australia is to withdraw its 1500 troops. The U.S. has over 60,000 troops in Afghanistan.

Photo: Polish soldiers in Afghanistan / photo courtesy www.isaf.wp.mil.pl

 
Quote    Reply
PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27   NEXT



StrategyWorld.com© 1998 - 2012StrategyWorld.com. All rights Reserved. StrategyWorld.com, StrategyPage.com, FYEO, For Your Eyes Only and Al Nofi's CIC are all trademarks of StrategyWorld.com Privacy Policy