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Subject: Poland and Czech kicked in the nuts by the US
YelliChink    9/17/2009 10:33:06 AM
edition.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/09/17/missile.defense.shield/index.html [quote] But Biden explained the logic of doing so, saying Iran -- a key concern for the United States -- was not a threat. "I think we are fully capable and secure dealing with any present or future potential Iranian threat," Biden said in Baghdad, where he is on a brief trip. ... "This is catastrophic for Poland," said the spokeswoman, who declined to be named in line with ministry policy. advertisement Poland and the Czech Republic had based much of their future security policy on getting the missile defenses from the United States. The countries share deep concerns of a future military threat from the east -- namely, Russia -- and may look for other defense assurances from their NATO allies. [unquote]
 
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DarthAmerica       9/22/2009 4:24:56 PM

Darth, I had this discussion with you many times, so I'm not going to elaborate on this issue much and you know where I stand. With that being said, I have to tell you that by making statments like Iran is not crazy enough to kill millions of Jews is just dumb! how soon you forget history, and it is not just you it's most people. I will bet you that most people in the world were saying the same thing in the 1930's and we know how that turned out. Look, when you can tell me how many times thugs and loons like Ahmadinejad, Hitler, Saddam, Kim etc.... have gave in to negotiating and economical sanctions then I will listen to you, until then I will listen to history. Facts trump assumptions every time my freind.

The fact is that countries are run by very capable and smart people. These people pursue an agenda that best help them achieve their respective national interest. Sometimes, those interest conflict with other nations and you get crisis. But don't fool yourself into thinking that the leaders of Iran are anxiously waiting to kill millions of Jews. I do not accept that and it's something that NEVER gets discussed in a serious INTSUM or private analysis. If you mentioned that as a serious possibility in professional circles that actually have to provide answers to policy makers on why Iran does what it does you would get fired.

That doesn't mean that some national leaders aren't extremely brutal, motivated by racism ect. But they aren't going to run national policy solely based on that. Iran knows full well the consequences of any kind of WMD attack originating from it's soil. They aren't taking the steps to establish themselves as a regional power only to throw it away with some silly fiction novel style unprovoked WMD attack on Israel. Even the Israelis don't think that.  It's the capability, not the intentions they are worried about.

-DA 
 
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usajoe1    DA   9/22/2009 4:33:37 PM
 

The USA started it to gain leverage on Russia
 
BS! more assumptions from a man that is full of them.

Russia is terrified of DoD presence in Poland for previously stated reasons 
 
LOL! yah Darth and you know this because? If you really believe that high level Russian officials are terrified of DOD presence in Poland, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn I want to sell you. There is no way in hell that a country with thousands of nuclear weapons is going to be terrified of a couple of US defense personnel in Poland. You seriously believe that the US is thinking about invading Russia? or that any educated person in Russia actually believes this dumb assumption as well?

Iran is dependent on Russia to continue it's current policy

More BS! Iran has many options outside of Russia. (China, N. Korea, Pakistan.)


Russian support is crucial for Sanctions and OEF 
 
Sanctions don't work! how many times does history have to hit you on the head for you to realize this? Russia, or better yet, that criminal Putin is playing Carter jr. for a fool.
 
Just focus on that.
 
Just focus on learning history before you try to lecture someone kid.
 
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DarthAmerica       9/22/2009 4:41:04 PM
USAJOE,

Thanks for trying but our discussion is over. I'll leave you to your own opinions...


-DA 
 
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usajoe1       9/22/2009 4:54:47 PM
 
USAJOE,

Thanks for trying but our discussion is over. I'll leave you to your own opinions...
 
I guess you are just like your lovable leader Carter jr. you can't take any criticism, and you always think you are right and every one else is wrong. Let me guess I'm a racist for not agreeing with you right? both you, and your failed president are a joke. You guys are nothing but little cry babies.
 
 
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DarthAmerica       9/22/2009 5:08:07 PM

 
USAJOE,




Thanks for trying but our discussion is over. I'll leave you to your own opinions...
 

I guess you are just like your lovable leader Carter jr. you can't take any criticism, and you always think you are right and every one else is wrong. Let me guess I'm a racist for not agreeing with you right? both you, and your failed president are a joke. You guys are nothing but little cry babies.


 
Again, do you really feel it necessary to get personal? I'm not interested in changing your mind. If you have made up your mind, which its clear you have, then I'm fine with that. I've explained this issue in detail and provided analysis and facts that support it. If you still choose to harbor obviously incorrect opinions then I'm fine with that. Don't get upset because I don't want to get into a shouting match with you. It's immature and only further convinces me that it's a waste of my time to elaborate with someone who is convinced regardless of the facts.


-DA
 
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Mikko    What changed?   9/22/2009 5:51:47 PM
Thank you, Spiky, for your kind words. I feel encouraged, so here we go:
 
Knowing squat about knocking down ballistic missiles, I understand from the more experienced posters that the missile defence system was a wrong system in the wrong place in too little quantity to actually make any shift of balance in real life.
 
Nobody lost anything they previously had. I strongly believe we are talking about face. Saving it and especially taking insurances to have a face in case the fecies hit the fan - one way or the other. If you have a strong face, then you can do just about anything and the world accepts. GWB's invasion of Iraq wasn't bad because I felt strongly for Iraqis, it was bad because GWB took me and the rest of the world as immature teenagers and spoke to us accordingly.
 
Easing the tensions on the EU-Russia borders simply feels good. I side with USA today more than I did yesterday, am willing to buy American products and am more likely to vote for a pro-US candidate in the next parliamentary elections (not that I wouldn't anyway). Why? Because Obama plays nice. He doesn't use retarded gunslinger rhetorics, but appears a wise and feeling man.
 
Now that I feel Obama doesn't want war with anyone, I'm giving him, with all my power as a consumer and a voter, full mandate to bomb Iran back to the stone age if need be. (culture check: "I" referring to the average free man with a credit card) I'll buy a Jack Daniels from your country, Barack, and a Playboy Lingerie Special edition. You tried to be a man of peace but the bad guys didn't let you. Use nukes but remember to tell me they were aimed at military targets only, and I'll believe you.
 
Going through the motions of being a nice guy, Obama gets US more power, not less. It is a favor for the Israelis too.
 
So thank you, Obama, for taking some tension off the borders of EU back to your own big sandbox of sorrow. And to you, dear US warhawks: Free people with western living standards shoot money at you guys and love you as the strong big bro that you are, as long as you even pretend to share the peaceful values of western majority. It is in no-one's interests to piss off the Russians, quite on the contrary. There you have a nation that simply can not be bombed, so why downplay the upside?
 
Czechs and Poles? Please. All kids know they get to shout in the backseat for only so long before dad dumps them to cool down on a bus stop.
 
Hope I'm not too off topic. Not being very strategy oriented here...
 
Mikko
 
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YelliChink       9/22/2009 5:59:35 PM

 
Mikko


Do you even know why Finland was on Axis side during WW2?
 
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DarthAmerica       9/22/2009 6:26:04 PM
September 20, 2009
OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR

A Better Missile Defense for a Safer Europe

Washington

THE future of missile defense in Europe is secure. This reality is contrary to what some critics have alleged about President Obama?s proposed shift in America?s missile-defense plans on the continent — and it is important to understand how and why.

First, to be clear, there is now no strategic missile defense in Europe. In December 2006, just days after becoming secretary of defense, I recommended to President George W. Bush that the United States place 10 ground-based interceptors in Poland and an advanced radar in the Czech Republic. This system was designed to identify and destroy up to about five long-range missiles potentially armed with nuclear warheads fired from the Middle East — the greatest and most likely danger being from Iran. At the time, it was the best plan based on the technology and threat assessment available.

That plan would have put the radar and interceptors in Central Europe by 2015 at the earliest. Delays in the Polish and Czech ratification process extended that schedule by at least two years. Which is to say, under the previous program, there would have been no missile-defense system able to protect against Iranian missiles until at least 2017 — and likely much later.

Last week, President Obama — on my recommendation and with the advice of his national-security team and the unanimous support of our senior military leadership — decided to discard that plan in favor of a vastly more suitable approach. In the first phase, to be completed by 2011, we will deploy proven, sea-based SM-3 interceptor missiles — weapons that are growing in capability — in the areas where we see the greatest threat to Europe.

The second phase, which will become operational around 2015, will involve putting upgraded SM-3s on the ground in Southern and Central Europe. All told, every phase of this plan will include scores of SM-3 missiles, as opposed to the old plan of just 10 ground-based interceptors. This will be a far more effective defense should an enemy fire many missiles simultaneously — the kind of attack most likely to occur as Iran continues to build and deploy numerous short- and medium-range weapons. At the same time, plans to defend virtually all of Europe and enhance the missile defense of the United States will continue on about the same schedule as the earlier plan as we build this system over time, creating an increasingly greater zone of protection.

Steady technological advances in our missile defense program — from kill vehicles to the abilities to network radars and sensors — give us confidence in this plan. The SM-3 has had eight successful tests since 2007, and we will continue to develop it to give it the capacity to intercept long-range missiles like ICBMs. It is now more than able to deal with the threat from multiple short- and medium-range missiles — a very real threat to our allies and some 80,000 American troops based in Europe that was not addressed by the previous plan. Even so, our military will continue research and development on a two-stage ground-based interceptor, the kind that was planned to be put in Poland, as a back-up.

Moreover, a fixed radar site like the one previously envisioned for the Czech Republic would be far less adaptable than the airborne, space- and ground-based sensors we now plan to use. These systems provide much more accurate data, offer more early warning and tracking options, and have stronger networking capacity — a key factor in any system that relies on partner countries. This system can also better use radars that are already operating across the globe, like updated cold war-era installations, our newer arrays based on high-powered X-band radar, allied systems and pos

 
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usajoe1    What Facts DA?   9/22/2009 6:38:40 PM
Again, do you really feel it necessary to get personal? I'm not interested in changing your mind. If you have made up your mind, which its clear you have, then I'm fine with that. I've explained this issue in detail and provided analysis and facts that support it. If you still choose to harbor obviously incorrect opinions then I'm fine with that. Don't get upset because I don't want to get into a shouting match with you. It's immature and only further convinces me that it's a waste of my time to elaborate with someone who is convinced regardless of the facts.
 
What facts DA?
 
The fact that appeasement does not work.
 
The fact that thugs like Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, Kim, Putin only respect strength and feed on weakness.
 
The fact that you think Russia is scared of a couple of ABM's and some soldiers in Poland? which is a joke because Poland is already a Nato country, and it is not the same thing as puting troops in Ukraine, which I would understand.
 
The fact that the Original Carter had the same world view and turned out to be the worst president of the 20th century.
 
The fact that Iran is going to get nukes unless challenged by force e.g. N. Korea. Because sanctions don't work!!!

The fact that just because doing the right thing means many people will die and its too dificult, or too tough, then we should not do it? I guess when the Naziz started killing Jews and invaded Poland the rest of the world should of just turned the other cheek, becuase war would only mean millions of people would die.
 
 
 
 
 
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usajoe1       9/22/2009 6:47:08 PM
A Better Missile Defense for a Safer Europe
I don't care what this incompetent liar and coward has to say, so next time you post something from a high level offical make sure they have some credibility.
 
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