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Subject: Poland and Czech kicked in the nuts by the US
YelliChink    9/17/2009 10:33:06 AM
edition.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/09/17/missile.defense.shield/index.html [quote] But Biden explained the logic of doing so, saying Iran -- a key concern for the United States -- was not a threat. "I think we are fully capable and secure dealing with any present or future potential Iranian threat," Biden said in Baghdad, where he is on a brief trip. ... "This is catastrophic for Poland," said the spokeswoman, who declined to be named in line with ministry policy. advertisement Poland and the Czech Republic had based much of their future security policy on getting the missile defenses from the United States. The countries share deep concerns of a future military threat from the east -- namely, Russia -- and may look for other defense assurances from their NATO allies. [unquote]
 
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timon_phocas       9/21/2009 9:12:50 PM
this is an article by George Friedman, head of Strafor, discussing President Obama's decision not to deploy ground based interceptors in Poland. 
 
h**p://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20090921_bmd_decison_and_global_system?utm_source=GWeeklyS&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=090921&utm_content=readmore
 
By George Friedman

The United States announced late Sept. 17 that it would abandon a plan for placing ballistic missile defense (BMD) installations in Poland and the Czech Republic. Instead of the planned system, which was intended to defend primarily against a potential crude intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) threat from Iran against the United States, the administration chose a restructured system that will begin by providing some protection to Europe using U.S. Navy ships based on either the North or Mediterranean seas. The Obama administration has argued that this system will be online sooner than the previously planned system and that follow-on systems will protect the United States. It was also revealed that the latest National Intelligence Estimate finds that Iran is further away from having a true intercontinental missile capability than previously thought, meaning protecting Europe is a more pressing concern than protecting the United States.

Poland and the Czech Republic responded with a sense of U.S. betrayal, while Russia expressed its satisfact.... Russian envoy to NATO Dmitri Rogozin said Moscow welcomes the decision and sees it as an appropriate response to Russia?s offer to allow U.S. supplies to flow into Afghanistan through Russia. Later, the Russians added another reward: They tentatively announced the cancellation of plans to deploy short-range ballistic missiles in Kaliningrad, which they previously had planned as a response to the components of the U.S. BMD system planned for Poland and the Czech Republic.

Polish Despair and Russian Delight

Polish despair... (and Warsaw seemed far more upset than Prague) and Russian satisfaction must be explained to begin to understand the global implications. To do this, we must begin with an odd fact: The planned BMD system... did not in and of itself enhance Polish national security in any way even if missiles had actually targeted Warsaw, since the long-range interceptors in Poland were positioned there to protect the continental United States; missiles falling on Poland would likely be outside the engagement envelope of the original Ground-based Midcourse Defense interceptors. The system was designed to handle very few missiles originating from the Middle East, and the Russians obviously have more than a few missiles.

Given that even small numbers of missiles easily could overwhelm the system, the BMD system in no way directly ...: The Russian strike capability — against both Poland and the continental United States — was not affected at all. Indeed, placing the system on ships is no less threatening than placing them on land. So, if it was the BMD system the Russians were upset with, they should be no less upset by the redeployment at sea. Yet Moscow is pleased by what has happened — which means the BMD system was not really the issue.

For Poland, the BMD system was of little importance. What was important was that in placing the system in Poland, the United States obviously wa... from all threats. Since the system could not be protected without also protecting Poland, the BMD installation — and the troops and defensive systems that would accompany it — was seen as a U.S. guarantee on Polish national security even though the system itself was irrelevant to Polish security.

The Russians took the same vie.... They cared little about the BMD system itself; what they objected to was the presence of a U.S. strategic capability in Poland because this represented an American assertion that Poland was actively under the defense of the United States. Of particular note fro

 
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Nanheyangrouchuan       9/21/2009 11:40:57 PM
Darn you Timon, you stole my thunder.  I was going to bring the voice from the skies down on the Obama bashers.
 
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DarthAmerica       9/22/2009 3:08:37 AM
Reads a lot like what I've been summarizing here for the past 4 years or so...


-DA 
 
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Mikko    Too complicated for answers   9/22/2009 6:15:03 AM
Hello, nice to meet you all,
Here goes my first post on this site, though I've been reading the Strategypage news and forums regularly for four years now.
 
Having actual training only in battallion-level infantry/artillery tactics I have little else to bring to these conversations, but my subjective thoughts and a bit of Scandinavian perspective too.
 
 On Obama

For what I have learned, BHO is experimenting with something that actually could turn out to be a sustainable policy. He seems to take the personally hard way out of all the troubles USA is facing. Not the short-term one, not a popular one. He makes himself vulnerable to ridicule all the time, going against some of the fundaments in the American way of life. I have no way of saying whether he is doing a good job or not, but I give him a huge credit of trying to be an actual leader.
 
The challenges he faces are so huge, complex and deep, that I doubt no-one fully sane would want to make the decisions he is doing. Tearing apart one aspect of his policy, be it kicking Poles and Czechs in their salty nuts or sending a nice greeting to the people of Iran, leaves huge questions unanswered and worsened back home. He's got a recession at his hands, massive social issues to solve and two wars that both provide little political goodwill anymore, home or abroad.
 
On Russia
 
We Finns have somewhat of a tradition when it comes to understanding Russia and the way it behaves. Having no doomsday candles or mushroom bombs up our sleeves we kind of have to take them just as they are.
 
My viewpoint on Russians is that they share the symptoms of both the bully and the bullied. Their leadership reflects this attitude to the max. They are too busy hanging on to their major player status that they can't find the time to do the groundwork for sustainable strong economy. One that can arise only from civil rights, safety of life and democracy. So Russia throws punches and flexes its muscles like the overweight bully totally out of breath.
 
But I don't find them all that bad at heart. Russia is a nation that has never enjoyed genuine love or respect from their neighbours. Fear, yes, and opportunism a trainload.  I don't know which came first: The legitimate distrust towards their neighbours or a legitimate distrust of their neighbours towards Russia. As it mattered. You only have to break the cycle, no matter who started it. As long as USA is the Top Dog in the world, it is the only player that can take the risks of starting to trust others. 
 
Giving a bone to the Russians in the missile defence case is a brave policy, one that only the strongest can make. Israel is the one ally of the west that has no room to bargain with their misbehaving neighbours. Absolutely none. Obama focuses on Middle East on the expense of the nuts of Czechs and Poles, not on the expense of their actual national integrity. Only their cojones got hammered and they hold on to them a while in agony until the pain goes away. There are a whole lot bigger issues to solve in the ME and to my perspective BHO has taken the bold way out.
 
Geez, I try to make shorter post from now on. As this was my first I did my best to look smart - on the expense of being easy and fast to read.
 
Mikko
 
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Jeff_F_F       9/22/2009 8:13:26 AM

Russia is not gonna invade Poland or the Czech republic. Neither is Russia gonna fire missiles at Europe.

This ABM placement in Poland was fixing a problem that did not exist in my opinion. It was also creating problems where there were none before in my opinion.
As for using Putin as a scarecrow, that has more to do with local US politics IMHO.

What you should say is "Russia isn't going to invade Poland or the Czech republic AGAIN." Own up to the hard reality that Russia has already invaded Czechoslovakia once in the last century. Acknowledge that there is a long history of Russian aggression against the Poles, and that Russia and the Soviet Union have invaded, partitioned, or occupied Poland SIX TIMES since America was founded, and THREE TIMES just since World War I.
 
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Nanheyangrouchuan       9/22/2009 11:23:05 AM
For Jeff's benefit I'll point out some key issues in STRATFOR's analysis:
 
1. The fixed BMD system was nearly useless to protect Europe from short and medium range missiles, the ship based BMD is much more suitable AND cheaper.
2. The Russians equate the fixed BMD system with the need for US troops to be stationed at the sites which equates to militarizing the informal "buffer zone" between Europe and Russia.  Invasions of Russia from Europe have all gone through Poland.
3. Obama's withdrawl was mostly symbolic and the Russians know this.
4. The Poles have recently received large numbers of F-16 Block C/D aircraft, much more valuable for offensive/defensive purposes.
5. Iran can't continue its nuke program and survive sanctions without Russian diplomatic protection, and Russia is doing this for petty "great power" means.
 
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Spiky    Mikko   9/22/2009 11:59:16 AM
I didn't comment much on the Polish, "Missile Defense," and Russian issue. With the exception that Russia will NOT take stronger sanctions against Iran, keep dreaming if you think that is going to happen. It has been fascinating to see the "Missile Defense" politics turn out. My opinion was that Obama was, of course, going to drop this particular system in Europe and that doesn't concern me too much as his decisions with our ally Israel.
 
You are dead on right with this particular assessment:
 
"Giving a bone to the Russians in the missile defence case is a brave policy, one that only the strongest can make. Israel is the one ally of the west that has no room to bargain with their misbehaving neighbours. Absolutely none. Obama focuses on Middle East on the expense of the nuts of Czechs and Poles, not on the expense of their actual national integrity. Only their cojones got hammered and they hold on to them a while in agony until the pain goes away. There are a whole lot bigger issues to solve in the ME and to my perspective BHO has taken the bold way out."
 
I hope you post again Mikko, specially from your Scandinavian perspective.
 
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DarthAmerica       9/22/2009 12:52:34 PM

I didn't comment much on the Polish, "Missile Defense," and Russian issue. With the exception that Russia will NOT take stronger sanctions against Iran, keep dreaming if you think that is going to happen. It has been fascinating to see the "Missile Defense" politics turn out. My opinion was that Obama was, of course, going to drop this particular system in Europe and that doesn't concern me too much as his decisions with our ally Israel.

 
That's not a dream. That's what this is all about. The Russians aren't interested in Iran going nuclear. They are just using them to get as many concessions out of the USA as possible to secure their periphery from further erosion. At some point the USA, Allies or Israel will act independent of Russia against Iran. That may even include accepting a nuclear Iran. At that point the Russian position collapses.

-DA 
 
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YelliChink       9/22/2009 2:00:33 PM
www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/09/22/opinion/main5328898.shtml
 
[quote]
A Colossal Sign Of U.S. Weakness
Jamie M. Fly: Canceling The Missile Shield Betrays Our Allies
 
President Obama seems to think that by making a grand gesture and downplaying the Iranian threat he will garner good will from the Russians and the Iranians going into these talks, never mind the hurt feelings of long-time allies. More likely, Iran, Russia, and a watching world will see this for what it is: a colossal sign of U.S. weakness.
[unquote]
 
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DarthAmerica    @yellichink   9/22/2009 2:15:14 PM

www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/09/22/opinion/main5328898.shtml

 

[quote]


A Colossal Sign Of U.S. Weakness


Jamie M. Fly: Canceling The Missile Shield Betrays Our Allies

 


President Obama seems to think that by making a grand gesture and downplaying the Iranian threat he will garner good will from the Russians and the Iranians going into these talks, never mind the hurt feelings of long-time allies. More likely, Iran, Russia, and a watching world will see this for what it is: a colossal sign of U.S. weakness.


[unquote]

That is just pure ignorance of fact. Nothing about this suggest "Colossal Weakness". If anything it removed a barrier to Strategic US objectives. Nevermind the fact that there was no threat for the Polish GBI to defend against. It could not stop a Russian attack and there are no Iranian ICBMs. No "Feelings" were hurt. The only thing the Poles/Czechs really cared about was to be tied into the US defensive framework. They are still getting arms and US Support. Note the F-16's. If you are in Iran this is a terrifying development because now how can you be sure the Russians wont double cross.

We have explained it. We have shown credible analysis. What more will it take for this to sink in? What's the real reason you don't like it? Also, the Missile Shield is not cancelled, just using a different and much more capable method that doesn't entangle the USA with obsolete fixed silo based systems in a host country. 

It's funny that you quote MSN against actual professionals and real analysis. But I guess it's fine with you to limit the US option to opening a third front in the middle east.

-DA 
 
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