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Subject: What the US Healthcare debate is really about
Aussiegunneragain    9/14/2009 6:05:16 AM
Dreading getting sick not healthy Andrew Sullivan | September 14, 2009 Article from: The Australian THERE are many valid criticisms to be made of US healthcare, but let me tell a story that helps explain its strengths. Only 15 years ago, the retrovirus HIV was killing thousands in the US - six times as many young Americans have died of AIDS as died in Vietnam -- and researchers had never found a way to stop such a sophisticated and constantly evolving organism from burying itself in people's immune systems and slowly destroying them. I was told in 1993 that I had a few years to live. I write this 16 years later with a stronger immune system than I have ever measured before. The US's much-maligned healthcare system did this. Without this vast and free market in medical care and pharmaceuticals, without the potential for making large amounts of money from affluent and insured patients, the innovation of treatments would never have occurred at the pace it did. Yes, publicly funded research was also vital - but it is rightly restricted to basic science, not finessing drugs for humans. Now we have dozens of anti-HIV drugs, from private companies competing with each other, and my life is saved. How do I put a price on that? Here's the catch. This miraculous process was possible for me only because I had insurance through my employer. When I quit my job editing The New Republic, in part to grapple with HIV's toll, my employer compassionately allowed me to stay on staff at a low salary solely to protect me from going without insurance at all. You see: once without insurance in America, I would never have been able to get it again. I would have had a "pre-existing condition" and no insurance company would have accepted me. An uninsured freelancer with HIV had one option if he were to survive - heading fast into personal bankruptcy. If I had finally lost everything, I would then have been able to apply for public assistance. Losing everything you have ever had to prevent your own death was nearly my fate. It is the fate of many in the US - not the very poor, who are helped, however badly and expensively, in hospital emergency rooms - but the working middle classes who lose their healthcare soon after they lose their job. It is this that is at the centre of Barack Obama's proposals for reform. Yes, finding a way to control soaring costs is essential, and Obama's final compromise bill, especially if it is without an option for an affordable publicly provided plan, doesn't do nearly enough. Nonetheless, what the President was really selling last week was a little more middle-class security. And that was why it was more politically lethal, I suspect, than the pundit class has yet to absorb. Some see the potency of this move. Back in 1993, when the Clintons proposed a much more ambitious plan, Republican strategist Bill Kristol wrote a famous memo arguing that the Right should not negotiate or propose an alternative but should simply do all it could to kill the bill. In it, he shrewdly homed in on the danger as he saw it: "The long-term political effects of a successful Clinton healthcare bill will be even worse - much worse (than its medical consequences). It will re-legitimise middle-class dependency for 'security' on government spending and regulation. It will revive the reputation of the party that spends and regulates, the Democrats, as the generous protector of middle-class interests. And it will at the same time strike a punishing blow against Republican claims to defend the middle class by restraining government." I understand this sentiment and, given my libertarian leanings, tend to resist government intervention when it is unnecessary. I opposed the Clinton plan as too centrally dictated and bureaucratic. In an ideal world, I'd like to scrap the US system entirely, sever the connection between employment and health insurance, allow individuals to buy insurance from competing healthcare exchanges, and leave the rest to fee-for-service medicine. But it is a political fact that this won't happen in America. Obama's speech last week was therefore directed at people like me: suspicious of change and government, but aware the system is both inefficient and at some point cruel, even immoral. He played the Burkean card: "I believe it makes more sense to build on what works and fix what doesn't, rather than try to build an entirely new system from scratch." He dangled the prospect of relief: "As soon as I sign this bill, it will be against the law for insurance companies to drop your coverage when you get sick, or water it down when you need it most." And here's the best pitch for universal healthcare to conservatives in a long time: "That large-heartedness - that concern and regard for the plight of others - is not a partisan feeling. It is not a Republican or a Democratic feeling. It, too, is part of the American character." This patriotic appeal was the real import o
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Sentenial   9/26/2009 12:15:26 AM

Wow, I'm glad we have a Libertarian from Germany here to explain Americanism as it relates to the issue of health care in America to the Liberal from Australia and the Christian Democrat from the Netherlands.

I love how you claim that these views represent "americanism" when a majority of the voters at your last federal election showed clearly that they have a very different idea of what "americanism" is. The conciet is amusing in the extreme.
 
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Aussiegunneragain    I mean Warpig.    9/26/2009 12:15:59 AM



Wow, I'm glad we have a Libertarian from Germany here to explain Americanism as it relates to the issue of health care in America to the Liberal from Australia and the Christian Democrat from the Netherlands.




I love how you claim that these views represent "americanism" when a majority of the voters at your last federal election showed clearly that they have a very different idea of what "americanism" is. The conciet is amusing in the extreme.



 
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sentinel28a       9/26/2009 5:36:24 AM
I misunderstood what you were getting at then, AGA, and I apologize.  I've heard that argument before, though.  "Don't pass Obamacare and people will die because hospitals won't treat them!"  Yeah, right.
 
Also, a majority of people voted Obama into office, true.  An overwhelming majority of Americans voted Nixon into office too.  Oops.  So the majority can, on occasion, make mistakes.  I think there's a lot of Americans who are beginning to realize that Obama the centrist is the man who ran for office--and Obama the radical is the one who's sitting in the Oval Office now.
 
 
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PlatypusMaximus       9/26/2009 5:58:45 PM




Well sir...arguing that the government should prevent unnecessary death is crazy...Why not pass a law making unnecessary death illegal?







There are lots of laws like that, road rules spring to mind. Would you be advocating getting rid of those and unnecessarily increasing the risk to your own and your loved ones lives? Think about it and get back to me, I suspect it might give you cause to be a little bit less glib.
 Of course not, but nor would I advocate something as ridiculous as making all people purchase, own, drive and service ladas...I would just get the dangerous cars off the road....doubt I'd go into 1 Trillion in debt for it at this poinbt in time, either...doubt it would work like you claim it's supposed to, as well.
 
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buzzard       9/26/2009 8:38:16 PM
I love how you claim that these views represent "americanism" when a majority of the voters at your last federal election showed clearly that they have a very different idea of what "americanism" is. The conciet is amusing in the extreme.
 
 Of course given your usual superficial observations of this country you didn't notice that Obama ran from a significantly different political position than from which he has governed. His popularity has been falling like a rock as people have been exposed to his actual positions.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       9/26/2009 11:01:16 PM

I love how you claim that
these views represent "americanism" when a majority of the voters at
your last federal election showed clearly that they have a very
different idea of what "americanism" is. The conciet is amusing in the
extreme.
 

 Of course given your usual superficial observations of this country you didn't notice that Obama ran from a significantly different political position than from which he has governed. His popularity has been falling like a rock as people have been exposed to his actual positions.

Maybe so but are you going to claim that he ran on the same libertarian platform that Warpig and others are claiming to  represent "Americanism"?
 
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PlatypusMaximus       9/27/2009 6:54:35 AM
Democrats definitely ran on nasty,greedy lenders overextending people who could not afford the debt.
 
 
 WSJ:
  • SEPTEMBER 16, 2009, 10:07 A.M. ET

US Advocates Push To Expand Community Reinvestment Act

 ....incredible.
 
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warpig       9/27/2009 12:32:37 PM



Wow, I'm glad we have a Libertarian from Germany here to explain Americanism as it relates to the issue of health care in America to the Liberal from Australia and the Christian Democrat from the Netherlands.




I love how you claim that these views represent "americanism" when a majority of the voters at your last federal election showed clearly that they have a very different idea of what "americanism" is. The conciet is amusing in the extreme.



I suspect it's no less amusing than are your views to me regarding your conceit over thinking you understand republicanism by defining it as democracy, and that it's the will of the majority that ought to decide the issue without regard to anything else.
 
You are willfully ignoring Americanism, and worse.  Keep your socialist ideas on your side of the ocean, we already have enough wannabe tyrants over here.
 
 
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Hugo    AG   9/28/2009 5:13:57 AM


What words did I put into your mouth? I was merely pointing out the potential conseqences of such a quarantine policy in an entirely free healthcare market to you and didn't mis-represent you in any way. I'd actually be more inclined to find a debating opponent with better reading comprehension skills, rather than an "easier" one as you suggest in that somewhat superior manner.


These words,
 
But they wouldn't be able to afford treatment so the reality is that they would be quarenteened until they die. Good argument. 
 
You claimed my argument was one of letting persons be quarantined until they die.  That is neither a "good argument" nor is it mine. It wasn't my intention to impress a superior manner so I apologize but that is the second time you have attributed to me a position that I do not share.
 
 
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Mikko    Kids?   9/28/2009 6:24:42 AM
This thread has had its share of sidesteps from the original topic so I figure one more won't hurt. It seems like too much of an effort for me to keep track on the healtcare reform, since I'm not familiar even with the status quo. One thing though I'd like to ask you all. With a little foreword of course.
 
I'm eagerly pro free market economy when adults are concerned. It's everyone's responsibility to take care of their health, possessions and ability to make money. For example, those adults that grab the bottle/needle/KFC-basket and stop trying can feel free to rot in their misery and die off if not willing to take steps to get up themselves. I feel that proud and/or lazy people should not be restrained from self-destruction by the society.
 
However, I believe that people should plunge into maturity on equal terms. Freedo-meter should be reset in every generation, kids not having to suffer from background of their parents. I do believe that the best medical attention and the best education should be within the reach of everyone yet not able to make decisions for themselves.
 
I wrote this because I'm prejudiced to think that the wealth of the parents makes all the difference in the US, and the much appraised freedom and opportunities aren't really there for the ghetto child.  Sure, you can't provide proper upbringing by the government, but then again poor upbringing is a common phenomenon in every social class.
 
Actual question: How is medical care provided to the minors in the USA? Is it for the parents to pay for their insurances, or is there a public healthcare aspect to the school in which a minor goes to?
 
Mikko
 
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