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Subject: What the US Healthcare debate is really about
Aussiegunneragain    9/14/2009 6:05:16 AM
Dreading getting sick not healthy Andrew Sullivan | September 14, 2009 Article from: The Australian THERE are many valid criticisms to be made of US healthcare, but let me tell a story that helps explain its strengths. Only 15 years ago, the retrovirus HIV was killing thousands in the US - six times as many young Americans have died of AIDS as died in Vietnam -- and researchers had never found a way to stop such a sophisticated and constantly evolving organism from burying itself in people's immune systems and slowly destroying them. I was told in 1993 that I had a few years to live. I write this 16 years later with a stronger immune system than I have ever measured before. The US's much-maligned healthcare system did this. Without this vast and free market in medical care and pharmaceuticals, without the potential for making large amounts of money from affluent and insured patients, the innovation of treatments would never have occurred at the pace it did. Yes, publicly funded research was also vital - but it is rightly restricted to basic science, not finessing drugs for humans. Now we have dozens of anti-HIV drugs, from private companies competing with each other, and my life is saved. How do I put a price on that? Here's the catch. This miraculous process was possible for me only because I had insurance through my employer. When I quit my job editing The New Republic, in part to grapple with HIV's toll, my employer compassionately allowed me to stay on staff at a low salary solely to protect me from going without insurance at all. You see: once without insurance in America, I would never have been able to get it again. I would have had a "pre-existing condition" and no insurance company would have accepted me. An uninsured freelancer with HIV had one option if he were to survive - heading fast into personal bankruptcy. If I had finally lost everything, I would then have been able to apply for public assistance. Losing everything you have ever had to prevent your own death was nearly my fate. It is the fate of many in the US - not the very poor, who are helped, however badly and expensively, in hospital emergency rooms - but the working middle classes who lose their healthcare soon after they lose their job. It is this that is at the centre of Barack Obama's proposals for reform. Yes, finding a way to control soaring costs is essential, and Obama's final compromise bill, especially if it is without an option for an affordable publicly provided plan, doesn't do nearly enough. Nonetheless, what the President was really selling last week was a little more middle-class security. And that was why it was more politically lethal, I suspect, than the pundit class has yet to absorb. Some see the potency of this move. Back in 1993, when the Clintons proposed a much more ambitious plan, Republican strategist Bill Kristol wrote a famous memo arguing that the Right should not negotiate or propose an alternative but should simply do all it could to kill the bill. In it, he shrewdly homed in on the danger as he saw it: "The long-term political effects of a successful Clinton healthcare bill will be even worse - much worse (than its medical consequences). It will re-legitimise middle-class dependency for 'security' on government spending and regulation. It will revive the reputation of the party that spends and regulates, the Democrats, as the generous protector of middle-class interests. And it will at the same time strike a punishing blow against Republican claims to defend the middle class by restraining government." I understand this sentiment and, given my libertarian leanings, tend to resist government intervention when it is unnecessary. I opposed the Clinton plan as too centrally dictated and bureaucratic. In an ideal world, I'd like to scrap the US system entirely, sever the connection between employment and health insurance, allow individuals to buy insurance from competing healthcare exchanges, and leave the rest to fee-for-service medicine. But it is a political fact that this won't happen in America. Obama's speech last week was therefore directed at people like me: suspicious of change and government, but aware the system is both inefficient and at some point cruel, even immoral. He played the Burkean card: "I believe it makes more sense to build on what works and fix what doesn't, rather than try to build an entirely new system from scratch." He dangled the prospect of relief: "As soon as I sign this bill, it will be against the law for insurance companies to drop your coverage when you get sick, or water it down when you need it most." And here's the best pitch for universal healthcare to conservatives in a long time: "That large-heartedness - that concern and regard for the plight of others - is not a partisan feeling. It is not a Republican or a Democratic feeling. It, too, is part of the American character." This patriotic appeal was the real import o
 
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Hugo    AG   9/24/2009 8:38:30 AM
 

And here was me thinking that you were arguing that a free market will self regulate to protect poor people from the harmful effects poor quality health services by weeding them out. Now you change your tune and effectively say "well free markets won't really protect poor people from recieving a poor quality healthcare service, but that is better than nothing". Do you see the contradiction in your statements?

 

Please refrain from putting words in my mouth, there is no contradiction. Your original statement was a broad one remember? If not I'll quote you.

 

There are thousands of examples of how free markets result in poor quality products being delivered to those who can't pay for any better.

 

My reply was also a broad observation of free markets. Besides, quality is always relative. Is my Opel a poor quality car because it is not as good as a Mercedes (it's not as safe, my car has no ceramic brakes and fewer airbags)? Is your Holden a poor quality car because it is not as good as my Opel? Is another poster's Pontiac a poor quality car because it is not as good as your Holden?

 

Is a person's medical care poor quality because he shares a room with another person? Is another's care poorer quality still because she shares a room with two other patients? Does my doctor provide poor quality care because I have to wait fifteen minutes to see him whereas you waited only ten? 

 

Poor or merely poorer? That's a matter of opinion. And when it comes to services the market has proven to be consistently more discerning than government as to what constitutes quality.

 

The reality is that we can prevent poor people from recieving an unacceptably poor quality of care by a combination of regulation and government funding. It's not a matter of "take what you can afford, its better than nothing". Rather its "we will pay for you to have an acceptable level of care, though this won't be as good as people who pay for themselves and that is your incentive to look after youself". All advanced countries do this to differing degrees right now, though some like the US do it badly.

 

Who is the ?we? that is going to pay for it?  

 

So has fraud in any other market been stamped out as a result of its criminal status? I think not and its a bit late to catch the fraudster in the healthcare industry after the fact, when the victim is dead.

 

No, fraud will continue to exist and that is irrespective of whether or not the government regulates or the market does. There is medical fraud today with government oversight so I?m not sure that you have a point.

 
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Hugo    AG   9/24/2009 8:42:05 AM







Wrong yet again.  Anyone interacting with others with a deadly and contagious disease injures the health of others.  In a free society such a person would be legally dealt with similarly to an AIDS carrier who infects others knowingly in our current society.  Someone with tuburculosis, by virtue of his injuring the health of others would be quarantined until treated.  But don't let me stop you from continuing your search for an argument against free societies.




But they wouldn't be able to afford treatment so the reality is that they would be quarenteened until they die. Good argument.




Again you put words in my mouth.  If you are in need of an easier debating opponent, by all means invent one.
 
There are all sorts of solutions in free markets that might be found,

link

 
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Hugo    AG   9/24/2009 8:43:03 AM

h**p://mises.org/story/3699

 
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buzzard       9/24/2009 9:23:55 AM

Again you put words in my mouth.  If you are in need of an easier debating opponent, by all means invent one.
 
I should think you'd be used to him doing this by now. 
 
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FJV       9/24/2009 3:16:54 PM
Wrong yet again.  Anyone interacting with others with a deadly and contagious disease injures the health of others.  In a free society such a person would be legally dealt with similarly to an AIDS carrier who infects others knowingly in our current society.  Someone with tuburculosis, by virtue of his injuring the health of others would be quarantined until treated.  But don't let me stop you from continuing your search for an argument against free societies.
 
Quarantined until treated means nothing, because when there is no payment for the treatment, there will be no  treatment. This basically means you detain the infected person until he/she dies from their disease. A clear economical incentive for an infected person to remain undetected for as long as possible instead of coming forward if I ever saw one. As an aside I don't believe for a moment that law inforcement will catch such a person in a major city before at least 50 people are exposed to infection.
 
And then there is the incovenience of needing the person's cooperation in order to contain the oubreak. You need to know where the person has been and who the person has been in contact with. Of course the detaining will also be more expensive than a normal jail, because of the infection risks involved. Maybe even to the point of being just as expensive to treat the person in the 1st place.
 
All this happens instead of just treating one person. I don't see the better economic efficiency in this particular case.
 
 
 
 
 
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warpig       9/24/2009 3:38:13 PM
Wow, I'm glad we have a Libertarian from Germany here to explain Americanism as it relates to the issue of health care in America to the Liberal from Australia and the Christian Democrat from the Netherlands.
 
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Hugo    FJV   9/25/2009 4:55:49 AM

Wrong yet again.  Anyone interacting with others with a deadly and contagious disease injures the health of others.  In a free society such a person would be legally dealt with similarly to an AIDS carrier who infects others knowingly in our current society.  Someone with tuburculosis, by virtue of his injuring the health of others would be quarantined until treated.  But don't let me stop you from continuing your search for an argument against free societies.

 

Quarantined until treated means nothing, because when there is no payment for the treatment, there will be no  treatment. This basically means you detain the infected person until he/she dies from their disease. A clear economical incentive for an infected person to remain undetected for as long as possible instead of coming forward if I ever saw one. As an aside I don't believe for a moment that law inforcement will catch such a person in a major city before at least 50 people are exposed to infection.

And then there is the incovenience of needing the person's cooperation in order to contain the oubreak. You need to know where the person has been and who the person has been in contact with. Of course the detaining will also be more expensive than a normal jail, because of the infection risks involved. Maybe even to the point of being just as expensive to treat the person in the 1st place.

All this happens instead of just treating one person. I don't see the better economic efficiency in this particular case.
 

First already currently there are examples of persons with tuburculosis walking around in the populace unnoticed.  On occasion they are not diagnosed for months. 
 
Second, there is a pretty big incentive for someone to have themselves treated once they are diagnosed with something like tuburculosis. 
 
Third, even if in our hypothetical example, the person is unable to afford treatment himself, it requires no broad stretch of the imagination to assume (actually assumptions aren't necessary we know this from experience) that one of the first type of disease that charitable foundations are going to pay for the prevention of are highly contagious ones.  Children are already regularly innoculated against tuburculosis as a matter of common practise so your hypothetical individual that enjoys coughing on little kids and getting them sick is implausible. 
 
Fourth, it would seem that you make the assumption that no collective action is likely in free societies.  This is not true.  Citizens are highly likely to agree to mass inocculation programs for contagious diseases for children.
 

 
 
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sentinel28a       9/25/2009 4:46:54 PM
FJV and AGA, are you honestly trying to convince me that a hospital will just let a TB patient die rather than treat them, because they cannot pay?
 
I have an idea.  You could do what I'm doing right now--bashing one's head against the desk--and go to the ER.  Look carefully at the walls.  I guarantee you, because it is the law, that a hospital must treat people regardless of their ability to pay--and hospitals must have this fact prominently displayed.  Hospitals write off millions of dollars (the bill being footed by the taxpayer, natcherly) in bills for people who can't afford to be treated.  I know--I've had it done myself in lean times.  I still had to pay the doc, but I've yet to run into one that wouldn't agree to a payment plan.  If I declare bankruptcy if he refuses, he's not getting squat, and he knows it.
 
I did have our local "boutique" hospital try to pull this "You will pay us NOW" crap with me.  One threat of a lawsuit later, and they were suddenly rather accomodating...though I ended up taking my business elsewhere to a hospital that would accept a payment plan, and whose admin staff were a hell of a lot nicer.
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Hugo   9/26/2009 12:05:30 AM















Wrong yet again.  Anyone interacting with others with a deadly and contagious disease injures the health of others.  In a free society such a person would be legally dealt with similarly to an AIDS carrier who infects others knowingly in our current society.  Someone with tuburculosis, by virtue of his injuring the health of others would be quarantined until treated.  But don't let me stop you from continuing your search for an argument against free societies.










But they wouldn't be able to afford treatment so the reality is that they would be quarenteened until they die. Good argument.










Again you put words in my mouth.  If you are in need of an easier debating opponent, by all means invent one.

 

There are all sorts of solutions in free markets that might be found,



link




What words did I put into your mouth? I was merely pointing out the potential conseqences of such a quarantine policy in an entirely free healthcare market to you and didn't mis-represent you in any way. I'd actually be more inclined to find a debating opponent with better reading comprehension skills, rather than an "easier" one as you suggest in that somewhat superior manner.
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Sentenial   9/26/2009 12:11:11 AM

FJV and AGA, are you honestly trying to convince me that a hospital will just let a TB patient die rather than treat them, because they cannot pay?

 I have an idea.  You could do what I'm doing right now--bashing one's head against the desk--and go to the ER.  Look carefully at the walls.  I guarantee you, because it is the law, that a hospital must treat people regardless of their ability to pay--and hospitals must have this fact prominently displayed.  Hospitals write off millions of dollars (the bill being footed by the taxpayer, natcherly) in bills for people who can't afford to be treated.  I know--I've had it done myself in lean times.  I still had to pay the doc, but I've yet to run into one that wouldn't agree to a payment plan.  If I declare bankruptcy if he refuses, he's not getting squat, and he knows it.

 I did have our local "boutique" hospital try to pull this "You will pay us NOW" crap with me.  One threat of a lawsuit later, and they were suddenly rather accomodating...though I ended up taking my business elsewhere to a hospital that would accept a payment plan, and whose admin staff were a hell of a lot nicer.


If you are following the debate properly you will note that Hugo is debating for a theoretical libertarian healthcare system, with exceptions for instances like genetic problems. In a truly libertarian system that the law requiring hospitals to treat emergency cases would be removed and my comment was made on that basis. Of course the TB case wouldn't happen in the current US system because of that law.  
 
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