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Subject: What the US Healthcare debate is really about
Aussiegunneragain    9/14/2009 6:05:16 AM
Dreading getting sick not healthy Andrew Sullivan | September 14, 2009 Article from: The Australian THERE are many valid criticisms to be made of US healthcare, but let me tell a story that helps explain its strengths. Only 15 years ago, the retrovirus HIV was killing thousands in the US - six times as many young Americans have died of AIDS as died in Vietnam -- and researchers had never found a way to stop such a sophisticated and constantly evolving organism from burying itself in people's immune systems and slowly destroying them. I was told in 1993 that I had a few years to live. I write this 16 years later with a stronger immune system than I have ever measured before. The US's much-maligned healthcare system did this. Without this vast and free market in medical care and pharmaceuticals, without the potential for making large amounts of money from affluent and insured patients, the innovation of treatments would never have occurred at the pace it did. Yes, publicly funded research was also vital - but it is rightly restricted to basic science, not finessing drugs for humans. Now we have dozens of anti-HIV drugs, from private companies competing with each other, and my life is saved. How do I put a price on that? Here's the catch. This miraculous process was possible for me only because I had insurance through my employer. When I quit my job editing The New Republic, in part to grapple with HIV's toll, my employer compassionately allowed me to stay on staff at a low salary solely to protect me from going without insurance at all. You see: once without insurance in America, I would never have been able to get it again. I would have had a "pre-existing condition" and no insurance company would have accepted me. An uninsured freelancer with HIV had one option if he were to survive - heading fast into personal bankruptcy. If I had finally lost everything, I would then have been able to apply for public assistance. Losing everything you have ever had to prevent your own death was nearly my fate. It is the fate of many in the US - not the very poor, who are helped, however badly and expensively, in hospital emergency rooms - but the working middle classes who lose their healthcare soon after they lose their job. It is this that is at the centre of Barack Obama's proposals for reform. Yes, finding a way to control soaring costs is essential, and Obama's final compromise bill, especially if it is without an option for an affordable publicly provided plan, doesn't do nearly enough. Nonetheless, what the President was really selling last week was a little more middle-class security. And that was why it was more politically lethal, I suspect, than the pundit class has yet to absorb. Some see the potency of this move. Back in 1993, when the Clintons proposed a much more ambitious plan, Republican strategist Bill Kristol wrote a famous memo arguing that the Right should not negotiate or propose an alternative but should simply do all it could to kill the bill. In it, he shrewdly homed in on the danger as he saw it: "The long-term political effects of a successful Clinton healthcare bill will be even worse - much worse (than its medical consequences). It will re-legitimise middle-class dependency for 'security' on government spending and regulation. It will revive the reputation of the party that spends and regulates, the Democrats, as the generous protector of middle-class interests. And it will at the same time strike a punishing blow against Republican claims to defend the middle class by restraining government." I understand this sentiment and, given my libertarian leanings, tend to resist government intervention when it is unnecessary. I opposed the Clinton plan as too centrally dictated and bureaucratic. In an ideal world, I'd like to scrap the US system entirely, sever the connection between employment and health insurance, allow individuals to buy insurance from competing healthcare exchanges, and leave the rest to fee-for-service medicine. But it is a political fact that this won't happen in America. Obama's speech last week was therefore directed at people like me: suspicious of change and government, but aware the system is both inefficient and at some point cruel, even immoral. He played the Burkean card: "I believe it makes more sense to build on what works and fix what doesn't, rather than try to build an entirely new system from scratch." He dangled the prospect of relief: "As soon as I sign this bill, it will be against the law for insurance companies to drop your coverage when you get sick, or water it down when you need it most." And here's the best pitch for universal healthcare to conservatives in a long time: "That large-heartedness - that concern and regard for the plight of others - is not a partisan feeling. It is not a Republican or a Democratic feeling. It, too, is part of the American character." This patriotic appeal was the real import o
 
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buzzard       9/23/2009 11:47:23 AM
I really don't believe hospitals take a big hit treating an uninsured person either. For instance whether an uninsured person comes in or not, the hospital is still paying the doctors and staff, the equipment has already been procured, the utilities are being paid. I don't see a hospital being broken financially unless there is a "bank run" of mobs of uninsured people all coming in at the same time taking up all the beds and using up all the staffs time.
 
 To back this up, I saw a line in a WSJ editorial yesterday which mentioned that hospitals covering the uninsured only amounted to 2.2% of total health care costs. As such they are a drastically over-hyped topic.
 
You know, about what I'd expect in this argument. 
 
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reefdiver       9/23/2009 12:16:15 PM

I really don't believe
hospitals take a big hit treating an uninsured person either. For
instance whether an uninsured person comes in or not, the hospital is
still paying the doctors and staff, the equipment has already been
procured, the utilities are being paid. I don't see a hospital being
broken financially unless there is a "bank run" of mobs of uninsured
people all coming in at the same time taking up all the beds and using
up all the staffs time.

  To back this up, I saw a line in a WSJ editorial yesterday which mentioned that hospitals covering the uninsured only amounted to 2.2% of total health care costs. As such they are a drastically over-hyped topic. 
You know, about what I'd expect in this argument. 

There have been hundreds of border state hospitals closed due to the burden of illegal immigrants unable to pay. California has had something like 100 or more close. Most had over 50% unpaid bills due to federal requirements they treat everyone (or be fined). Not only are the hospitals closing, but many costs are also passed on to Medicaid - further increasing costs for everyone else.  In other words - in some regions the % is much, much higher.
Note that this also ignores the small profit percentages that most hospitals operate at. Few make much of anything. Insurance companies also mostly operate under 10% profit.

 
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buzzard       9/23/2009 2:17:14 PM
Well considering the size of the overall pie, even that small slice could hit the border hospitals hard.
 
Of course the health care bill will not have any effect on illegals and their use of medical care. 
 
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FJV    What about the externalities   9/23/2009 4:48:31 PM
Let's not treat the uninsured illegal with open tuberculosis.
 
After all it's much easier and cheaper to fight an epidemic by treating a only treating the insured people, leaving the uninsured schmucks walking around untreated causing new epidemics along with making the same epidemic come back again and again and again.

Treating 1 uninsured person for tuberculosis or have an epidemic on your hands.
 
This means that the highly contageous diseases (ebola, tuberculosis, smallpox) the externalities sort of force you to treat uninsured persons or risk a much more expensive epidemic. Schmucks who never paid a dime for healthcare.
 
Unless you wanna remain an ideological pure libertarian and are willing to pay the price of an ebola suffering slob coughing blood all over you and your family.
 
 
 
 
 
 
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xylene       9/23/2009 8:38:07 PM




I really don't believe

hospitals take a big hit treating an uninsured person either. For

instance whether an uninsured person comes in or not, the hospital is

still paying the doctors and staff, the equipment has already been

procured, the utilities are being paid. I don't see a hospital being

broken financially unless there is a "bank run" of mobs of uninsured

people all coming in at the same time taking up all the beds and using

up all the staffs time.



  To back this up, I saw a line in a WSJ editorial yesterday which mentioned that hospitals covering the uninsured only amounted to 2.2% of total health care costs. As such they are a drastically over-hyped topic. 

You know, about what I'd expect in this argument. 





There have been hundreds of border state hospitals closed due to the burden of illegal immigrants unable to pay. California has had something like 100 or more close. Most had over 50% unpaid bills due to federal requirements they treat everyone (or be fined). Not only are the hospitals closing, but many costs are also passed on to Medicaid - further increasing costs for everyone else.  In other words - in some regions the % is much, much higher.


Note that this also ignores the small profit percentages that most hospitals operate at. Few make much of anything. Insurance companies also mostly operate under 10% profit.





While I don't think one uninsured person being treated at a hospital will cause financial ruin, I do concede there is a "tipping point" in which it does start eating away at money and resources. It seems those hospitals on the border suffered from a horde of uninsured illegals that litterally broke the bank. If we made provisions in the law for hospitals to be able to hold those people and require INS and border patrol to come by for immediate deportation that should limit the amount of illegals trying to get free health care. Illegals immigrants should realize they face immediate deportation if treated. That way they will think twice when they have an accident or get sick.
 
 
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Hugo    FJV   9/24/2009 3:11:31 AM

Let's not treat the uninsured illegal with open tuberculosis.

 

After all it's much easier and cheaper to fight an epidemic by treating a only treating the insured people, leaving the uninsured schmucks walking around untreated causing new epidemics along with making the same epidemic come back again and again and again.




Treating 1 uninsured person for tuberculosis or have an epidemic on your hands.

 

This means that the highly contageous diseases (ebola, tuberculosis, smallpox) the externalities sort of force you to treat uninsured persons or risk a much more expensive epidemic. Schmucks who never paid a dime for healthcare.


 

Unless you wanna remain an ideological pure libertarian and are willing to pay the price of an ebola suffering slob coughing blood all over you and your family.

  

Wrong yet again.  Anyone interacting with others with a deadly and contagious disease injures the health of others.  In a free society such a person would be legally dealt with similarly to an AIDS carrier who infects others knowingly in our current society.  Someone with tuburculosis, by virtue of his injuring the health of others would be quarantined until treated.  But don't let me stop you from continuing your search for an argument against free societies.
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Hugo   9/24/2009 7:43:29 AM
Poor quality products are better than no products for those who can't afford better. 

And here was me thinking that you were arguing  that a free market will self regulate to protect poor people from the harmful effects poor quality health services by weeding them out. Now you change your tune and effectively say "well free markets won't really protect poor people from recieving a poor quality healthcare service, but that is better than nothing". Do you see the contradiction in your statements?
 
The reality is that we can prevent poor people from recieving an unacceptably poor quality of care by a combination of regulation and government funding. It's not a matter of "take what you can afford, its better than nothing". Rather its "we will pay for you to have an acceptable level of care, though this won't be as good as people who pay for themselves and that is your incentive to look after youself". All advanced countries do this to differing degrees right now, though some like the US do it badly.
 
Being fooled is either a result of stupidity or fraud, the latter of which the government has a role in preventing through law enforcement (a breach of the property rights of the defrauded.)
 
So has fraud in any other market been stamped out as a result of its criminal status? I think not and its a bit late to catch the fraudster in the healthcare industry after the fact, when the victim is dead.
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Hugo   9/24/2009 7:46:05 AM




I really don't believe

hospitals take a big hit treating an uninsured person either. For

instance whether an uninsured person comes in or not, the hospital is

still paying the doctors and staff, the equipment has already been

procured, the utilities are being paid. I don't see a hospital being

broken financially unless there is a "bank run" of mobs of uninsured

people all coming in at the same time taking up all the beds and using

up all the staffs time.



  To back this up, I saw a line in a WSJ editorial yesterday which mentioned that hospitals covering the uninsured only amounted to 2.2% of total health care costs. As such they are a drastically over-hyped topic. 

You know, about what I'd expect in this argument. 





There have been hundreds of border state hospitals closed due to the burden of illegal immigrants unable to pay. California has had something like 100 or more close. Most had over 50% unpaid bills due to federal requirements they treat everyone (or be fined). Not only are the hospitals closing, but many costs are also passed on to Medicaid - further increasing costs for everyone else.  In other words - in some regions the % is much, much higher.


Note that this also ignores the small profit percentages that most hospitals operate at. Few make much of anything. Insurance companies also mostly operate under 10% profit.





Took the words out of my mouth. A 2.2% increase in costs is substantial when you are looking at a less than 10% profit margin.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       9/24/2009 7:54:48 AM









I really don't believe



hospitals take a big hit treating an uninsured person either. For



instance whether an uninsured person comes in or not, the hospital is



still paying the doctors and staff, the equipment has already been



procured, the utilities are being paid. I don't see a hospital being



broken financially unless there is a "bank run" of mobs of uninsured



people all coming in at the same time taking up all the beds and using



up all the staffs time.







  To back this up, I saw a line in a WSJ editorial yesterday which mentioned that hospitals covering the uninsured only amounted to 2.2% of total health care costs. As such they are a drastically over-hyped topic. 



You know, about what I'd expect in this argument. 













There have been hundreds of border state hospitals closed due to the burden of illegal immigrants unable to pay. California has had something like 100 or more close. Most had over 50% unpaid bills due to federal requirements they treat everyone (or be fined). Not only are the hospitals closing, but many costs are also passed on to Medicaid - further increasing costs for everyone else.  In other words - in some regions the % is much, much higher.






Note that this also ignores the small profit percentages that most hospitals operate at. Few make much of anything. Insurance companies also mostly operate under 10% profit.













While I don't think one uninsured person being treated at a hospital will cause financial ruin, I do concede there is a "tipping point" in which it does start eating away at money and resources. It seems those hospitals on the border suffered from a horde of uninsured illegals that litterally broke the bank. If we made provisions in the law for hospitals to be able to hold those people and require INS and border patrol to come by for immediate deportation that should limit the amount of illegals trying to get free health care. Illegals immigrants should realize they face immediate deportation if treated. That way they will think twice when they have an accident or get sick.


 


Think twice about what, going to hospital when they are sick or injured so they die miserably or become disabled? Nice.
Anyway, I doubt that such a regulation would work. Hospitals tend to be staffed and run by nice people who do what they do because they give a damn about humanity. There might be a few hosptial administrators who would buy into their hospital becoming a venus fly trap for the INS, but I would guarentee you that the healthcare professionals employed would kick up such a fuss about being the "sick illegal immigrants cop" that it just wouldn't be worth the administrators while. The immigrants would still be treated on the hospital and sent on their way.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       9/24/2009 7:56:42 AM



Wrong yet again.  Anyone interacting with others with a deadly and contagious disease injures the health of others.  In a free society such a person would be legally dealt with similarly to an AIDS carrier who infects others knowingly in our current society.  Someone with tuburculosis, by virtue of his injuring the health of others would be quarantined until treated.  But don't let me stop you from continuing your search for an argument against free societies.

But they wouldn't be able to afford treatment so the reality is that they would be quarenteened until they die. Good argument.

 
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