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Subject: What the US Healthcare debate is really about
Aussiegunneragain    9/14/2009 6:05:16 AM
Dreading getting sick not healthy Andrew Sullivan | September 14, 2009 Article from: The Australian THERE are many valid criticisms to be made of US healthcare, but let me tell a story that helps explain its strengths. Only 15 years ago, the retrovirus HIV was killing thousands in the US - six times as many young Americans have died of AIDS as died in Vietnam -- and researchers had never found a way to stop such a sophisticated and constantly evolving organism from burying itself in people's immune systems and slowly destroying them. I was told in 1993 that I had a few years to live. I write this 16 years later with a stronger immune system than I have ever measured before. The US's much-maligned healthcare system did this. Without this vast and free market in medical care and pharmaceuticals, without the potential for making large amounts of money from affluent and insured patients, the innovation of treatments would never have occurred at the pace it did. Yes, publicly funded research was also vital - but it is rightly restricted to basic science, not finessing drugs for humans. Now we have dozens of anti-HIV drugs, from private companies competing with each other, and my life is saved. How do I put a price on that? Here's the catch. This miraculous process was possible for me only because I had insurance through my employer. When I quit my job editing The New Republic, in part to grapple with HIV's toll, my employer compassionately allowed me to stay on staff at a low salary solely to protect me from going without insurance at all. You see: once without insurance in America, I would never have been able to get it again. I would have had a "pre-existing condition" and no insurance company would have accepted me. An uninsured freelancer with HIV had one option if he were to survive - heading fast into personal bankruptcy. If I had finally lost everything, I would then have been able to apply for public assistance. Losing everything you have ever had to prevent your own death was nearly my fate. It is the fate of many in the US - not the very poor, who are helped, however badly and expensively, in hospital emergency rooms - but the working middle classes who lose their healthcare soon after they lose their job. It is this that is at the centre of Barack Obama's proposals for reform. Yes, finding a way to control soaring costs is essential, and Obama's final compromise bill, especially if it is without an option for an affordable publicly provided plan, doesn't do nearly enough. Nonetheless, what the President was really selling last week was a little more middle-class security. And that was why it was more politically lethal, I suspect, than the pundit class has yet to absorb. Some see the potency of this move. Back in 1993, when the Clintons proposed a much more ambitious plan, Republican strategist Bill Kristol wrote a famous memo arguing that the Right should not negotiate or propose an alternative but should simply do all it could to kill the bill. In it, he shrewdly homed in on the danger as he saw it: "The long-term political effects of a successful Clinton healthcare bill will be even worse - much worse (than its medical consequences). It will re-legitimise middle-class dependency for 'security' on government spending and regulation. It will revive the reputation of the party that spends and regulates, the Democrats, as the generous protector of middle-class interests. And it will at the same time strike a punishing blow against Republican claims to defend the middle class by restraining government." I understand this sentiment and, given my libertarian leanings, tend to resist government intervention when it is unnecessary. I opposed the Clinton plan as too centrally dictated and bureaucratic. In an ideal world, I'd like to scrap the US system entirely, sever the connection between employment and health insurance, allow individuals to buy insurance from competing healthcare exchanges, and leave the rest to fee-for-service medicine. But it is a political fact that this won't happen in America. Obama's speech last week was therefore directed at people like me: suspicious of change and government, but aware the system is both inefficient and at some point cruel, even immoral. He played the Burkean card: "I believe it makes more sense to build on what works and fix what doesn't, rather than try to build an entirely new system from scratch." He dangled the prospect of relief: "As soon as I sign this bill, it will be against the law for insurance companies to drop your coverage when you get sick, or water it down when you need it most." And here's the best pitch for universal healthcare to conservatives in a long time: "That large-heartedness - that concern and regard for the plight of others - is not a partisan feeling. It is not a Republican or a Democratic feeling. It, too, is part of the American character." This patriotic appeal was the real import o
 
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xylene    Aussiegunneragain   9/22/2009 3:09:12 AM
Now I am in the minority here since I want universal health care. A person pays taxes and health care is a service provided from those taxes. That is not what Obama is proposing. In fact he is very wishy washy even regarding a government option. What I fear is after the dust settles and compromises are done, we will not have the protections regading pre-existing conditions, etc, we will not have a government option, but there will be a legal requirement to buy health insurance from a private insurance company. I can think of no other precident. It is the equivalent of making it a legal requirement to have a retirement savings account and one must ,under penalty of fines or jail, open up an account with Fidelity or some other private financial institution. It will be the best Christmas present ever to private insurance.
 
I really don't believe hospitals take a big hit treating an uninsured person either. For instance whether an uninsured person comes in or not, the hospital is still paying the doctors and staff, the equipment has already been procured, the utilities are being paid. I don't see a hospital being broken financially unless there is a "bank run" of mobs of uninsured people all coming in at the same time taking up all the beds and using up all the staffs time. 
 
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reefdiver       9/22/2009 9:42:41 AM

Now I am in the minority here since I want universal health care. A person pays taxes and health care is a service provided from those taxes. That is not what Obama is proposing. In fact he is very wishy washy even regarding a government option. What I fear is after the dust settles and compromises are done, we will not have the protections regading pre-existing conditions, etc, we will not have a government option, but there will be a legal requirement to buy health insurance from a private insurance company. I can think of no other precident. It is the equivalent of making it a legal requirement to have a retirement savings account and one must ,under penalty of fines or jail, open up an account with Fidelity or some other private financial institution. It will be the best Christmas present ever to private insurance.

 I really don't believe hospitals take a big hit treating an uninsured person either. For instance whether an uninsured person comes in or not, the hospital is still paying the doctors and staff, the equipment has already been procured, the utilities are being paid. I don't see a hospital being broken financially unless there is a "bank run" of mobs of uninsured people all coming in at the same time taking up all the beds and using up all the staffs time. 


The insurance companies are likely to get something they'll like - a mass of new customers required to buy insurance - in exchange for insuring everyone.  The government will likely continue to pile on new regulations about what must be covered by all policies. The combination will however likely put many insurance companies out of business, consolidating the power of a few.  Saddling the insurance companies with unlimited obligations, and increasing the use of healthcare facilities by reducing personal responsibility and increasing providers responsibility,  when you're trying to save money is insane. The idea of forcing people to buy insurance from a private company is as well.  Current ideas just aren't going to fly well.  There are other ways.
 
You're partly wrong about hospitals - in the Mexican border states hundreds have had to close down, or at least close their emergency rooms due to illegal immigrants overwhelming their financial ability. Many are likely public hospitals.
 
 
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Hugo    AG   9/22/2009 10:40:03 AM
 

The reality is that the Republican's and the Liberal Party of Australia exemplify libertarian theories because they are just that, theories. They provide useful insights into directions that societies might like to take and they have done so in many instances over the last two hundred years. However, they ignore basic realities about our nature as social animals and therefore haven't, can't and won't predominate. 

 

You couldn't be more wrong. Neither parties can trace their philosophical underpinnings to libertarian political economists. Austrian economists abhor the policies of the Republican party and are deeply critical of heroes of both major parties whether it be Lincoln or F.D.R. Sure Thatcher carried around a book or two written by Hayek, but look at the UK both then and now. I disagree with your assessment of Austrian theories being of theoretical value only. In contrast to Keynesians or Monetarists whose ideas dominate political policy making, Austrians do not rely on overly complicated mathematical models that themselves rely on fabricated, simplified assumptions every time they are unable to explain something. When Keynesians refer to "animal instincts" or "liquidity traps" it can be read as "our models don't really resemble the real world but why they don't is in the too hard basket." But our political leaders continue to listen to them because of their appeal to the democratically elected.

 

Austrian theory is a-priori and fundamentally sound passing real world tests. Whether you had listened to the government appointed gurus like Greenspan or Bernanke or Krugman who only months before the current financial crisis were reassuring us that all was well, they all got it wrong. Their policy prescriptions for government intervention were all a disaster.  The Austrians consistently get it right because they understand how the world works - perhaps because they are entierly divorced from politics. It isn't socialists who understand human nature, it is Austrians and I believe they have successfully proven this time and again.

  

The reality is that most people couldn't afford the pay the cost of a major healthcare event out of their own pocket nowdays, so you can't really consider them not buying insurance to be a rational choice. It really is just gambling and you might argue that that is their right, but while they would still expect to be treated if they were uninsured when it happenned then I argue that in fact they have an obligation to be insured. I do however think there should be exemptions for people who earn over a certain income level or have enough assets for self insurance to be a credible option. 

  

No, most can't which is why they should probably buy insurance. You can label not buying insurance gambling but then buying insurance is gambling that the probability of an event occurring multiplied by it's expected cost is higher than the cost of that insurance.  So buying or not buying insurance could be rational or not depending on the individual making the decision. My argument is that the decision should be left to the individual.

 

Yup, I am arguing that elected governments have the right to make decisions that involve a loss of liberty for everybody in order to achieve a greater social good. Those sorts of decisions are in fact why governments exist and if people don't like that then it that is basically tough. However, I lean towards keeping this intrusion to an absolute minimum and therefore my answer to your second question is that there should be the maximum flexibility for people to choose what type of care they are insured for within the bounds of being insured to an adequate value.

 

An

 
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sentinel28a       9/22/2009 2:13:00 PM
Yet apparently the Obama administration thinks the American people are stupid--or at least irresponsible teenagers.  SecEnergy Chu today said that the purpose of cap-and-trade is to "discipline" Americans into better use of energy.  Discipline?  It's only the government's responsibility to discipline me if I've broken the law.  If I leave a fan running all night because it helps me sleep, it isn't Chu's business to give me crap for it, and it's not against the law.  It just means I'll have to pay the electric company a bit more.  No kid in Southcentral LA is going to go hungry because I run my fan a little longer.
 
It's a different subject, but it shows the general attitude of Obama and his administration--we Americans must be stupid to do what we do, so we need to be made to do what is right.  I don't think health care is going to be run any better.
 
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xylene       9/22/2009 7:20:09 PM
I agree. The same attitude seems to have taken hold regarding inflating the price of gasoline to force consumers to use less or buy hybrids or inflating the price of cigarrettes because they are to much of cowards to try an outright ban.
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Hugo   9/23/2009 4:56:35 AM
 

 

 

 

This wouldn't work for people who can't consider the risks because they have been bought to an emergency department unconsious, or for an intellectualy disabled person, a mentally ill person, a demented person or a child who needs urgent medical care and doesn't have a guardian. I'd be wanting health professionals to be vetted by a government regulator to provideprotection in those instances alone. 

 



I'm not going to answer point by point because you aren't really interested in listening. For example, this comment demonstrates this:

They might know because that hospital has lost a highly respected endorsement of a highly regarded private foundation. They might know because the hospital enjoys a poor reputation amongst the local community. They might know because the media has highlighted problems with the hospital and staff. They might know because other hospitals nearby offer better services and enjoy superior reputations. They might know because medical professionals with quality credentials refuse to work at the dodgy hospital. They may know because the hospital in question has lost court cases for misconduct. They may also know because the only endorsement the hospital in question can get is from Dr Death of the Grim Reaper Foundation. People aren't stupid.
 
During this part of the conversation we were talking about people who turn up to hospital unconsious, or when they are unable to make decisions for themselves due to age, disability or illness. How do you propose that those pople will be able to make use of all of that valuable information to make a better private decision than a regulatory would.
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Xylene   9/23/2009 5:09:09 AM
Now I am in the minority here since I want universal health care. A person pays taxes and health care is a service provided from those taxes. That is not what Obama is proposing. In fact he is very wishy washy even regarding a government option. What I fear is after the dust settles and compromises are done, we will not have the protections regading pre-existing conditions, etc, we will not have a government option, but there will be a legal requirement to buy health insurance from a private insurance company. I can think of no other precident. It is the equivalent of making it a legal requirement to have a retirement savings account and one must ,under penalty of fines or jail, open up an account with Fidelity or some other private financial institution. It will be the best Christmas present ever to private insurance.
 
If you want universal healthcare cover then you are going to be forced to pay for it one way or another. The government option and compulsory private health insurance (which would continue to be supported by taxpayer funded support under the Obama plan) are just different ways of doing this. At the end of the day though a dollar is still a dollar and a life is still a life, so the most important objective is to design the system which strikes the best balance to save both. The liberals in the US who are so hung up on having a "public option" because we couldn't possibly trust the big, nasty insurance sector to provide what is needed, even under regulation, have the potential to do as much damage by sinking any chance that the US has to get a universal system as do conservatives who entirely oppose universal cover. They need to lose the blind ideology about how a universal healthcare system must be designed and work with Obama to come up with the best politically acceptable solution that can be achieved in order to make sure everybody gets care.
 
I really don't believe hospitals take a big hit treating an uninsured person either. For instance whether an uninsured person comes in or not, the hospital is still paying the doctors and staff, the equipment has already been procured, the utilities are being paid. I don't see a hospital being broken financially unless there is a "bank run" of mobs of uninsured people all coming in at the same time taking up all the beds and using up all the staffs time.
 
You obviously haven't worked in a hospital then. They don't have surplus staff and equipment sitting around, they need to plan their activities based on the likely patient numbers and if it is illegal to turn away non-payers then they also need to be considered. The extra resources that this requires has to come from somewhere and in the absense of universal health cover it comes from the hospital and its patients own pockets.
 
 
 
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Hugo    AG   9/23/2009 7:00:55 AM
 

I think accusations of me not listening are unfair though I concede that I may not understand you. You pointed out the issue of the unconscious arriving at a hospital not being able to judge the clinic's quality. I pointed out that neither could an unconscious person do that under any circumstances. Your response was that at least with government oversight he would be provided an assurance of a minimum standard. I countered that a free market would also provide regulation possibly superior. Your response was that a free market could not (and never has) provide(d) regulation of medical care. I cited the AMA which is a private foundation whose very purpose was to establish standards and which the US government to this day relies upon to regulate medical care in the US so in essence in a free market in the US the actual regulatory authority may not even change. You also stated that the poor would be vulnerable, and potentially have to put up with dodgy hospitals. My counter was that regulation and public information readily available in free markets would render it extremely difficult if not impossible for such hospitals to operate. I doubt that the existence of dangerous hospitals would be any more prevalent in free markets than the existence of dangerous ocean liners or airlines. 

 

I am listening it's only that I am not being convinced.

 
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Aussiegunneragain    Hugo   9/23/2009 8:03:47 AM
  I think accusations of me not listening are unfair though I concede that I may not understand you. You pointed out the issue of the unconscious arriving at a hospital not being able to judge the clinic's quality. I pointed out that neither could an unconscious person do that under any circumstances.

That's the point, under those circumstances they need somebody to make the decision of which hospital to go to for them. If they don't happen to have a significant other to do that then it has to fall to the Government to assure quality, otherwise they are just rolling the dice as to the facility in which they end up.


 Your response was that at least with government oversight he would be provided an assurance of a minimum standard. I countered that a free market would also provide regulation possibly superior. Your response was that a free market could not (and never has) provide(d) regulation of medical care. I cited the AMA which is a private foundation whose very purpose was to establish standards and which the US government to this day relies upon to regulate medical care in the US so in essence in a free market in the US the actual regulatory authority may not even change. 

Actually the State government regulate medical care in the United States through their medical boards. The fact that they outsource some of their functions such as medical accreditation to private organisations doesn't mean that the system is a free market one. The ultimate power as to who practices and who doesn't still rests with the government.

You also stated that the poor would be vulnerable, and potentially have to put up with dodgy hospitals. My counter was that regulation and public information readily available in free markets would render it extremely difficult if not impossible for such hospitals to operate. I doubt that the existence of dangerous hospitals would be any more prevalent in free markets than the existence of dangerous ocean liners or airlines. 

That statement just defies the facts. There are thousands of examples of how free markets result in poor quality products being delivered to those who can't pay for any better. The old adage that "you get what you pay for" is as true as ever and healthcare is no different. There are also heaps of examples of people being fooled into paying too much for a poor quality product by rip off merchants.
 
For the vast majority of products I have no problem with this, because as far as I am concerned people are responsible for themselves and if earning a poor wage or making a bad purchasing decision means that they get a substandard product, then that is their own problem. Healthcare is different though, for the reasons which I have already explained and won't repeat.
 
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Hugo    AG   9/23/2009 10:43:29 AM

That's the point, under those circumstances they need somebody to make the decision of which hospital to go to for them. If they don't happen to have a significant other to do that then it has to fall to the Government to assure quality, otherwise they are just rolling the dice as to the facility in which they end up.

 

I can see I am not making myself clear.  You say it has to fall to the government, I say it could be provided by market derived regulatory constraints with possibly better outcomes.  Reducing government control would also remove regulatory burdens that currently prevent nurses setting a broken wrist etc.  Greater access, lower costs and lower waiting times in the absence of government with continued stringent market sourced regulation provided citizen guidance. 

 


Actually the State government regulate medical care in the United States through their medical boards. The fact that they outsource some of their functions such as medical accreditation to private organisations doesn't mean that the system is a free market one. The ultimate power as to who practices and who doesn't still rests with the government.

 

 

Let me be perfectly clear.  My opinion is that the source of the faults in current US healthcare are a result of it not being a free market. 

 



That statement just defies the facts. There are thousands of examples of how free markets result in poor quality products being delivered to those who can't pay for any better. The old adage that "you get what you pay for" is as true as eve

 
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