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Subject: What the US Healthcare debate is really about
Aussiegunneragain    9/14/2009 6:05:16 AM
Dreading getting sick not healthy Andrew Sullivan | September 14, 2009 Article from: The Australian THERE are many valid criticisms to be made of US healthcare, but let me tell a story that helps explain its strengths. Only 15 years ago, the retrovirus HIV was killing thousands in the US - six times as many young Americans have died of AIDS as died in Vietnam -- and researchers had never found a way to stop such a sophisticated and constantly evolving organism from burying itself in people's immune systems and slowly destroying them. I was told in 1993 that I had a few years to live. I write this 16 years later with a stronger immune system than I have ever measured before. The US's much-maligned healthcare system did this. Without this vast and free market in medical care and pharmaceuticals, without the potential for making large amounts of money from affluent and insured patients, the innovation of treatments would never have occurred at the pace it did. Yes, publicly funded research was also vital - but it is rightly restricted to basic science, not finessing drugs for humans. Now we have dozens of anti-HIV drugs, from private companies competing with each other, and my life is saved. How do I put a price on that? Here's the catch. This miraculous process was possible for me only because I had insurance through my employer. When I quit my job editing The New Republic, in part to grapple with HIV's toll, my employer compassionately allowed me to stay on staff at a low salary solely to protect me from going without insurance at all. You see: once without insurance in America, I would never have been able to get it again. I would have had a "pre-existing condition" and no insurance company would have accepted me. An uninsured freelancer with HIV had one option if he were to survive - heading fast into personal bankruptcy. If I had finally lost everything, I would then have been able to apply for public assistance. Losing everything you have ever had to prevent your own death was nearly my fate. It is the fate of many in the US - not the very poor, who are helped, however badly and expensively, in hospital emergency rooms - but the working middle classes who lose their healthcare soon after they lose their job. It is this that is at the centre of Barack Obama's proposals for reform. Yes, finding a way to control soaring costs is essential, and Obama's final compromise bill, especially if it is without an option for an affordable publicly provided plan, doesn't do nearly enough. Nonetheless, what the President was really selling last week was a little more middle-class security. And that was why it was more politically lethal, I suspect, than the pundit class has yet to absorb. Some see the potency of this move. Back in 1993, when the Clintons proposed a much more ambitious plan, Republican strategist Bill Kristol wrote a famous memo arguing that the Right should not negotiate or propose an alternative but should simply do all it could to kill the bill. In it, he shrewdly homed in on the danger as he saw it: "The long-term political effects of a successful Clinton healthcare bill will be even worse - much worse (than its medical consequences). It will re-legitimise middle-class dependency for 'security' on government spending and regulation. It will revive the reputation of the party that spends and regulates, the Democrats, as the generous protector of middle-class interests. And it will at the same time strike a punishing blow against Republican claims to defend the middle class by restraining government." I understand this sentiment and, given my libertarian leanings, tend to resist government intervention when it is unnecessary. I opposed the Clinton plan as too centrally dictated and bureaucratic. In an ideal world, I'd like to scrap the US system entirely, sever the connection between employment and health insurance, allow individuals to buy insurance from competing healthcare exchanges, and leave the rest to fee-for-service medicine. But it is a political fact that this won't happen in America. Obama's speech last week was therefore directed at people like me: suspicious of change and government, but aware the system is both inefficient and at some point cruel, even immoral. He played the Burkean card: "I believe it makes more sense to build on what works and fix what doesn't, rather than try to build an entirely new system from scratch." He dangled the prospect of relief: "As soon as I sign this bill, it will be against the law for insurance companies to drop your coverage when you get sick, or water it down when you need it most." And here's the best pitch for universal healthcare to conservatives in a long time: "That large-heartedness - that concern and regard for the plight of others - is not a partisan feeling. It is not a Republican or a Democratic feeling. It, too, is part of the American character." This patriotic appeal was the real import o
 
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Hugo    AG   9/16/2009 9:46:42 AM
 

I agree that libertarian principles don't entirely govern modern economies but they are influential. I responded in that way because I was getting a black and white argument about them from other posters.

 

I disagree. I think it needs to be made clear that there is a very large practical difference between liberal (in the classical, not contemporary American definition) and libertarian. I see very few if any examples of Austrian economic principles predominant in our societies. We have government controlled financial and healthcare markets, centralized planning of monetary supplies, schools, universities, trade, roads, judiciary, etc etc. Liberals are a problem for libertarians because they argue for serious compromise which ultimately means social-democrats and others on the left end up blaming free markets and a lack of regulation for problems that in fact are caused by government interference. The recent financial crisis is an excellent case in point. Many of the current problems in US healthcare are a result of government regulation. The left, or, in the US,  Democratically inclined are quick to blame the marketplace, whereas some liberals defend the status quo which is itself not at all free. A libertarian is strongly at odds with both.

 

 The problem with this is that as I have previously discussed those services are the ones which are likely to prevent worse illnesses but they are the ones that people go cheap on. Of course the libertarian would say "that is entirely their responsibility" to which I would respond "I don't entirely agree". I will go into the reasoning for this later.

 

They might, I don?t know to be honest. I am tremendously disappointed with the healthcare system in Germany where I live (or at least for GP services, I have been lucky enough to avoid anything more serious to date). I saw four different GPs for weeks a few years ago before getting a correct diagnosis for glandular fever (sic? In German it has the wonderful title of Pfeifferischedrusenfieber in honour of its discoverer). My little girl also was taken to two doctors before a correct diagnosis of ear infection which my wife even suggested to the doctor could be the issue after reading about its symptoms on the internet. An extra sleepless night and tremendous pain for a nine month old because there are no real consequences of doing his job. My mother (not diagnosed in Germany) was continually falsely diagnosed when she had stomach cancer that was life threatening. I try and remain objective but I have at times been disgusted with government regulated healthcare. Incidentally, I think German GPs are on strike today because they are protesting against the rates they receive for a particular service for publically insured patients. Rationing healthcare through price controls isn't working well here. Of course German doctors, like most Germans enamoured with Bismarckian respect for authority are too blind to see the real problem. They don't complain about government itself but only want more from it.

 

To cut my rant short, I will say that I certainly choose to see the doctor less often because I am, after numerous personal experiences, convinced that regular GPs in this government run system are completely incompetent. If there are many others thinking similarly then how does that improve our health?

 

 I am sure that they would but I am also sure that less serious medical needs for the uninsured would be addressed in this way than would be the case with an option that involved government regulation, remuneration or ownership. People aren't going to volenteer to provide the same level of service that they would if it was they are paid to do so, they couldn't afford to and in any case not everybody is that charitable.

 

 

 
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Nanheyangrouchuan       9/18/2009 10:04:38 AM

I may have misread FJV's post, but it sounded to me that he was criticizing those positions, not supporting them.  (Though there are a few of those positions I would support myself--illegal immigration being one.) 

 

I guess Nan must've got a job with the Obama administration.  Isn't that their present tactic? "You're criticizing Obamacare, so you must be in the pay of the health insurance industry." I hate Obamacare.  When do I get my check from Blue Cross?

 

Kind of like saying "You support Israel.  You must be in the Jewish lobby."  (I want my check from the Mossad, too.)  Or for that matter, "You support Obama.  You must be a paid-up member of SEIU or Acorn!"

 

There are good health insurance policies out there and there are bad ones.  People can find out a little about either by doing this remarkable thing called "research."  The point is that, however screwed up the healthcare industry is now, we have the freedom to choose if we want this or that policy, if we don't, or even if we want insurance at all.  Obama wants to take that away.  I ask "Why?"  Because I have this sneaking feeling it's not because Obama is my pal and wants only what's best for me.

 

 

 



What other industry other than US healthcare are people routinely denied the service (insurance coverage) which they are actively paying for and even have a very difficult time suing for this denial of services paid for? 
 
 Taking someone's money and not providing them that which they have paid for is known as theft in some circles, fraud when it occurs repeatedly and organized crime when it is one person or a group actively engaged in such a practice with as many people as possible.
 
 
But Republicans call it "capitalism".

 
 
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Old Grunt       9/18/2009 11:26:47 AM
Taking someone's money and not providing them that which they have paid for is known as theft in some circles, fraud when it occurs repeatedly and organized crime when it is one person or a group actively engaged in such a practice with as many people as possible.
 
 
But Republicans call it "capitalism".
 
Thanks for clearing that up, I was under the impression that we called it "Taxation"
 
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sentinel28a       9/18/2009 3:24:50 PM
Have you ever been routinely denied service by your insurance provider, Nan?  It's never happened to me, and I've had three of them, including Blue Cross.  The only time I've been rejected was when my policy didn't cover a certain procedure, or if I hadn't met my deductible--in other words, things I already knew about because I actually read the contract.  Yeah, it sucks that if I have to get a root canal, it's all coming out of my pocket--but since I'm not paying the extra $15 a month for dental, I kind of have to expect that.
 
Instead, you want to put our health care in charge of government bureaucrats who are not doctors, have no idea what certain procedures are, and have already proven they're not competent to run it--i.e. the VA, the IHS, and Medicare.
 
Sane people call that policy "stupidity."  Some people call it "socialism."  Some people even refer to it as "communism," which as I recall, Nan, you're none too fond of.
 
 
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Aussiegunneragain       9/19/2009 6:28:58 AM

I disagree. I think it needs to be made clear that there is a very large practical difference between liberal (in the classical, not contemporary American definition) and libertarian. I see very few if any examples of Austrian economic principles predominant in our societies. We have government controlled financial and healthcare markets, centralized planning of monetary supplies, schools, universities, trade, roads, judiciary, etc etc. Liberals are a problem for libertarians because they argue for serious compromise which ultimately means social-democrats and others on the left end up blaming free markets and a lack of regulation for problems that in fact are caused by government interference. The recent financial crisis is an excellent case in point. Many of the current problems in US healthcare are a result of government regulation. The left, or, in the US,  Democratically inclined are quick to blame the marketplace, whereas some liberals defend the status quo which is itself not at all free. A libertarian is strongly at odds with both.

 
Our local libertarian party draws its influences both classical liberal scholars like Adam Smith and Austrian School economists like Hayak. Both schools of thought advocate less government, the Austrian school was just 150 years more up to date, so I don't think that you can really make that much of a distinction between a libertarian and a classical liberal upon that basis. In any case Australia and many other countries including the US have seen considerable economic liberalisation since the early 1980's, hence my comment. Of course it hasn't gone "all the way" and gotten rid of government completely as many liberatarians might like, but there has been an undeniable influence of free market ideologies.

I will say that I certainly choose to see the doctor less often because I am, after numerous personal experiences, convinced that regular GPs in this government run system are completely incompetent. If there are many others thinking similarly then how does that improve our health?

As I have previously outlined, ensuring that people have access to primary healthcare doesn't necessarily mean that the service has to be provided or funded by the government. It might just mean that having a private insurance policy that incorporates primary care to a certain value is made compulsory, with the type of care that this includes being agreed between the individual and insurance company. 

It ought to have been mentioned that there would be both voluntary services provided by doctors, partially voluntary services provided and entirely free services provided for by charitable institutions that paid doctors to conduct them for low income earners. In such a system I for one would be very happy in making regular donations to such a charity. It would be false to assume that libertarians have no morality, instead they believe morality can only be a individual responsibility. 


I understand the libertarian view on charity and I agree that many social services that are currently provided by governments could be provided by not-for-profit organisations. They run a lot leaner than governments do and they are able to avoid the political imperitive of buying votes from the middle class, concentrating on legitimately disadvantaged people. However, I still contend that people won't donate as much of their time and money volentarily as they provide through taxation. That is fine with other social services but I am not prepared to take the risk that bases aren't covered because of inadequate donations with something as important as healthcare. Basically I'm prepared to accept some loss of liberty and some inefficiency to ensure that it is provided.

The problem with setting a goal of 10% is what if someones heavy smoking habit results in a larger than 10% premium in their health insurance costs? That smoker could choose to stop smoking (better for all) or pay the extra charge. The basic a priori problem with setting price premium ceilings or forbidding extra charges would be that you are in effect subsidizing bad behavior. That we know is not going to be beneficial to society's health as a whole. 


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CJH    "What the US Healthcare debate is really about"   9/19/2009 3:55:42 PM
With regard to the Democrat party political program -  the debate is really about the liberal big government establishment taking control of the 16% of the US GDP that is healthcare.
 
It's all about the money and the power from it. They want their hands on the money.
 
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warpig       9/19/2009 8:00:27 PM

Taking someone's money and not providing them that which they have paid for is known as theft in some circles, fraud when it occurs repeatedly and organized crime when it is one person or a group actively engaged in such a practice with as many people as possible.


 

 

But Republicans call it "capitalism".


 

Thanks for clearing that up, I was under the impression that we called it "Taxation"




 
 
OMG!  :-D
 
Ba da Boom!
 
OldGrunt, you people rock!

 
 
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warpig       9/19/2009 8:15:11 PM




So what is the position of Libertarians on patents for devices?

I'm interested in the "reward for effort" perspective.

There is no single position.  Some are deeply in favour of strong patents believing that an invention is a property right that deserves exclusive control.  Others, and I believe this is a more recent phenomenon led by Kinsella, believe that a patent right is a breach of another's property right.  They might explain it as such. Say you and I have a bag of lemons, a juicer, some sugar.  Well let's say you work for a week determining the perfect mixture for lemonade.  You discover it and then patent that recipe.  I have the same inputs and want to reproduce the formula because my customers are buying your product now.  When I manage to reproduce your secret formula you take me to court for breach of patent.  I argue (along the lines of Kinsella) that your patent restricts my ability to use my property (lemons, sugar etc) the way I want to.

I think traditionally libertarians have been in strong favour of patent protection but there is a dissenting school of thought.

 

 

One of the first responsibilities of government listed in the Constitution is to create a patent system and enforce it. On the other hand, some might argue this has been tinkered a bit too much. Don't want to get into such as its just way off topic.





 
I can't let this pass....
 
Laws of Nature, like E=mc^2, are not patentable.
 
I am almost certain a formula for lemonade that uses known ingredients but in some proportions asserted to be unique would not be patentable for at least the reasons that 1) it is not an article of manufacture, a machine, a composition of matter, or a method of making or using one of those three, and 2) even if it does fit the definition of one of those, it is unpatentable because it would be obvious to one of ordinary skill in the art to try various combinations of amounts of known ingredients, lacking any showing of secondary considerations like unexpected results.  Fiddling around with the ingredient proportions until it tastes the way you like would not be an unexpected result.
 
Also, I would point out that the patent on the "secret" formula would have to reveal the secret formula in order to get a patent on the formula.  Patents are public documents, and thus the formula would instantly become not-secret.  However, if it received a patent, the assignee could require licensing fees, royalties, or else sue for damages anyone who does use the formula.  But it would no longer be a trade secret once it was patented.
 
Perhaps if v^2 is reading this, he can chime in?
 
 
 
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PlatypusMaximus       9/19/2009 8:42:28 PM
"I am just advocating that there should be a safety net to catch those who for one reason or another don't have health insurance, to prevent them from dying unnecessarily."
 
Well sir...arguing that the government should prevent unnecessary death is crazy...Why not pass a law making unnecessary death illegal?
 
arguing that the government should prevent unnecessary death could be  for nefarious reasons, why on earth would you start with the unnecessary deaths caused by lack of insurance when many times that die with insurance?
 
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PlatypusMaximus       9/19/2009 8:52:21 PM
"What other industry other than US healthcare are people routinely denied the service (insurance coverage) which they are actively paying for and even have a very difficult time suing for this denial of services paid for? "
 
Satellite television.
 
...and believe me, not a thunderstorm goes by that I don't feel like tossing out the entire idea of contract business and appeals courts, and just let me pick the winners and losers.
 
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