Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
United States Discussion Board
Sign In   Return to Topic Page
Subject: What the US Healthcare debate is really about
Aussiegunneragain    9/14/2009 6:05:16 AM
Dreading getting sick not healthy Andrew Sullivan | September 14, 2009 Article from: The Australian THERE are many valid criticisms to be made of US healthcare, but let me tell a story that helps explain its strengths. Only 15 years ago, the retrovirus HIV was killing thousands in the US - six times as many young Americans have died of AIDS as died in Vietnam -- and researchers had never found a way to stop such a sophisticated and constantly evolving organism from burying itself in people's immune systems and slowly destroying them. I was told in 1993 that I had a few years to live. I write this 16 years later with a stronger immune system than I have ever measured before. The US's much-maligned healthcare system did this. Without this vast and free market in medical care and pharmaceuticals, without the potential for making large amounts of money from affluent and insured patients, the innovation of treatments would never have occurred at the pace it did. Yes, publicly funded research was also vital - but it is rightly restricted to basic science, not finessing drugs for humans. Now we have dozens of anti-HIV drugs, from private companies competing with each other, and my life is saved. How do I put a price on that? Here's the catch. This miraculous process was possible for me only because I had insurance through my employer. When I quit my job editing The New Republic, in part to grapple with HIV's toll, my employer compassionately allowed me to stay on staff at a low salary solely to protect me from going without insurance at all. You see: once without insurance in America, I would never have been able to get it again. I would have had a "pre-existing condition" and no insurance company would have accepted me. An uninsured freelancer with HIV had one option if he were to survive - heading fast into personal bankruptcy. If I had finally lost everything, I would then have been able to apply for public assistance. Losing everything you have ever had to prevent your own death was nearly my fate. It is the fate of many in the US - not the very poor, who are helped, however badly and expensively, in hospital emergency rooms - but the working middle classes who lose their healthcare soon after they lose their job. It is this that is at the centre of Barack Obama's proposals for reform. Yes, finding a way to control soaring costs is essential, and Obama's final compromise bill, especially if it is without an option for an affordable publicly provided plan, doesn't do nearly enough. Nonetheless, what the President was really selling last week was a little more middle-class security. And that was why it was more politically lethal, I suspect, than the pundit class has yet to absorb. Some see the potency of this move. Back in 1993, when the Clintons proposed a much more ambitious plan, Republican strategist Bill Kristol wrote a famous memo arguing that the Right should not negotiate or propose an alternative but should simply do all it could to kill the bill. In it, he shrewdly homed in on the danger as he saw it: "The long-term political effects of a successful Clinton healthcare bill will be even worse - much worse (than its medical consequences). It will re-legitimise middle-class dependency for 'security' on government spending and regulation. It will revive the reputation of the party that spends and regulates, the Democrats, as the generous protector of middle-class interests. And it will at the same time strike a punishing blow against Republican claims to defend the middle class by restraining government." I understand this sentiment and, given my libertarian leanings, tend to resist government intervention when it is unnecessary. I opposed the Clinton plan as too centrally dictated and bureaucratic. In an ideal world, I'd like to scrap the US system entirely, sever the connection between employment and health insurance, allow individuals to buy insurance from competing healthcare exchanges, and leave the rest to fee-for-service medicine. But it is a political fact that this won't happen in America. Obama's speech last week was therefore directed at people like me: suspicious of change and government, but aware the system is both inefficient and at some point cruel, even immoral. He played the Burkean card: "I believe it makes more sense to build on what works and fix what doesn't, rather than try to build an entirely new system from scratch." He dangled the prospect of relief: "As soon as I sign this bill, it will be against the law for insurance companies to drop your coverage when you get sick, or water it down when you need it most." And here's the best pitch for universal healthcare to conservatives in a long time: "That large-heartedness - that concern and regard for the plight of others - is not a partisan feeling. It is not a Republican or a Democratic feeling. It, too, is part of the American character." This patriotic appeal was the real import o
 
Quote    Reply

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest

Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23   NEXT
reefdiver       9/15/2009 4:42:27 PM




So what is the position of Libertarians on patents for devices?

I'm interested in the "reward for effort" perspective.


There is no single position.  Some are deeply in favour of strong patents believing that an invention is a property right that deserves exclusive control.  Others, and I believe this is a more recent phenomenon led by Kinsella, believe that a patent right is a breach of another's property right.  They might explain it as such. Say you and I have a bag of lemons, a juicer, some sugar.  Well let's say you work for a week determining the perfect mixture for lemonade.  You discover it and then patent that recipe.  I have the same inputs and want to reproduce the formula because my customers are buying your product now.  When I manage to reproduce your secret formula you take me to court for breach of patent.  I argue (along the lines of Kinsella) that your patent restricts my ability to use my property (lemons, sugar etc) the way I want to.

 

I think traditionally libertarians have been in strong favour of patent protection but there is a dissenting school of thought.


One of the first responsibilities of government listed in the Constitution is to create a patent system and enforce it. On the other hand, some might argue this has been tinkered a bit too much. Don't want to get into such as its just way off topic.

 
Quote    Reply

Hugo    FJV   9/15/2009 4:55:33 PM

Government cannot be the solution or even a part of the solution if you wanna reform healthcare. That is, if you want to be true to libertarian ideology.

 

The only thing that the libertarian ideology allows the government is to do less (ideally nothing). To be truly honest  in the libertarian point of view libertarian looking at the government to fix healthcare is to look at the wrong place.


 

In their view a solution would have to come from the market mechanisms, by somehow having an ensurer come up with a new and improved "product" that will provide healthcare at a lower cost.


 


I don't share those views. Even worse in my opinion those views are based on some very flawed assumptions about how the world functions. And in my opinion where these ideas have been put into practice they have failed and caused a lot of damage. The fact that despite this some people advocate putting more effort in a practice that lead to faillure does not improve my opionion of them.


Most libertarians assign government a role, I just don't think it is something you understand.  You've made your opinion above clear but I would be interested in knowing why,
 
1. you refuse to acknowledge that the market for healthcare in the United States is currently very heavily regulated and approaches nothing even resembling a free market?
2. what are those "flawed assumptions" - don't merely allude to something what is it that you are talking about?
3. what ideas have been put in to practise and where have they failed and why have they failed?  Again, please do not allude to something without mentioning what it is you are referring to and then go on to state that it was a failure and have caused damage.
 
what is it that you are talking about?
 
Quote    Reply

FJV    Yawn 2   9/15/2009 4:59:39 PM
- Increase regulation on banks and/or coorperations.
"http://delong.typepad.com/egregious_moderation/2009/05/henry-kaufman-how-libertarian-dogma-led-the-fed-astray.html"

"At the heart of this economic dogma is the belief that markets know best and that those who compete well will prosper, while those who do not will fail.

How did this affect the Fed?s actions and behaviour? First, it explains to a large extent why the Fed did not strongly oppose the removal of Glass-Steagall restrictions.

Second, it also helps explain why the Fed failed to recognise that abandoning Glass-Steagall created more institutions that were ?too big to fail?.

Third, it diminished the supervisory role of the Fed, especially its direct responsibility to regulate bank holding companies."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Fifth, adherence to economic libertarianism inhibited the Fed from using the bully pulpit or moral suasion to constrain market excesses."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sixth, the Fed?s increasingly libertarian philosophy underpinned its view that it could not know how to recognise a credit bubble but knew what to do once a bubble burst. This is a philosophy plagued with fallacies."
 
Who is helped by disruptions to free trade and the imposition of import taxes?
Local US industry. Clearly I'm the only one having a problem with a reduction of US manufacturing bay a third during the Bush years. In my opinion this already affects the ability of the US acces to high tech weapons.
"http://forward.msci.org/articles/0108mission-impossible.cfm"
"Even more critical, says Michael Wessel, president of Washington, D.C.-based consulting firm The Wessel Group and a member of the USCC, is the loss of a domestic capability to make butanetriol trinitrate, used in propellants for rockets and missiles, including the Hellfire missile, used by attack helicopters to combat tanks. Deputy Under Secretary of Defense for Industrial Policy William Greenwalt acknowledged in testimony before the USCC last July that a Chinese source might be the only one available. ?God forbid that tensions rise and our stockpile is limited, and we find our capabilities dependent on the Chinese,?"
Do you enjoy paying more for groceries because the European Union enacts trade tariffs and pays farmers for crops that it then warehouses to keep from the market?
This policy ensures food security should a war break out and we cannot import food.
Do you like the idea that impoverished African communities cannot export agricultural products to Europe because they are rendered uncompetitive by politicians?
Why do you deny policies to African nations that ensure their citizens will have enough to eat should imports be impossile because of war. Especially when considering how often wars plague that region?
 
Dumping is a favourite word of the politicians without them being very capable of proving the allegations. What is wrong with lower prices for consumers?
Breakdown of the US middle class, they must have good paying jobs. The middle class is the backbone of the US in my opinion. As for difficulty in proving the allegations of dumping at one time China was selling sweaters for less than what the cotton costs to make them. Or when Japan was selling flat screen displays for half the price it cost to make them.

 

Do you believe the government should be protecting high prices in order to improve the bottom line of domestic producers?
The US govt should be protecting the interests of the US middle class, which now means job security and healthcare in my opinion. The bottom line of the average Joe is what the higher prices are for.

Why stop there, let?s make it 70%, why should 1% of the populace have the same

 
Quote    Reply

Hugo    FJV   9/16/2009 5:34:01 AM
 

- Increase regulation on banks and/or coorperations.

http://delong.typepad.com/egre...

 

 

Okay, I am more than happy to address your post. Looking at the first part. The author, a Mr Henry Kaufman, has a tremendous reputation for being at the helm of management of collapsing banks beginning with Salomon and then later at Lehmann Brothers. At the latter he was in charge of financial risk so I suppose we ought to trust his analysis. Currently the man has been taken to court by the government on fraud and corruption charges. Knowing that let's take a look at what he has to say.

 

 

"At the heart of this economic dogma is the belief that markets know best and that those who compete well will prosper, while those who do not will fail.

 

 

Whose economic dogma? Is he suggesting that companies unable to compete will prosper and those that can will fail? That might explain why the companies he helped to manage no longer exist.

 

 

How did this affect the Fed's actions and behaviour? First, it explains to a large extent why the Fed did not strongly oppose the removal of Glass-Steagall restrictions.

 

The notion that you can remove one regulation on financial activity whilst keeping all others distorted and expect an effective, competitive outcome is idiocy.

 

Second, it also helps explain why the Fed failed to recognise that abandoning Glass-Steagall created more institutions that were ?too big to fail?.

Third, it diminished the supervisory role of the Fed, especially its direct responsibility to regulate bank holding companies."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Fifth, adherence to economic libertarianism inhibited the Fed from using the bully pulpit or moral suasion to constrain market excesses."

 

 

Is this a joke? Seriously, is this the author's attempt at being humourous? Is he genuinely suggesting that there is anything even remotely connecting the Federal Reserve and libertarian / Austrian economics? Note to Mr Kaufman and those reading his nonsense: libertarian economists despise the Federal Reserve. The very institution is the antithesis of liberty. The Federal Reserve is the problem not the solution according to free market thinking. How can anyone take seriously the notion that a Soviet Bureaucracy (which is precisely what the Federal Reserve is) can in anyway be a promoter or caretaker of free markets. It?s the most idiotic thing I have read in a long time. If the Federal Reserve "adhered to economic libertarianism" then it would have abolished itself in its first sitting.

 
Quote    Reply

Aussiegunneragain       9/16/2009 5:46:22 AM

So if US health policy
continues to let people go into personal bankruptcy when they get
shafted by their health insurance company as a result of a chronic illness,
like you seem to be advocating should be the case, what do you suggest
doing with the individual once his or her money for treatment has run
out?

 

As opposed to a system in  which if the government decides that treating you isn't worth the money, and you die?


 

For someone who claims to know a lick about economics, I find glaring gaps in your reasoning. 

 

There are horror stories on both sides of this debate. Focusing on them injects more hyperbole into the situation than anything useful. Of course that won't stop people (especially you, since I've seen you thrive on hyperbolic nonsense here and in the gun debates).


 

For everyone shafted by an insurance company, someone can dig up someone shafted by a government over health care. In a system where private insurers have to compete for customers, you can opt for a different provider and a different plan. In a system where the government is the guarantor of health, you can move to another country. Which do you think is more flexible as options go? 

 

I know, it is once more time for our lecture on the wonders of the oh-so-great Aussie hybrid socialized with private insurance mix. And on you will go with how our institutions can be magically fixed with the wave of your Aussie wand and somehow all those incredibly inefficient government agencies will suddenly become Florence Nightingale instead of Nurse Ratchet. Medicare is a $37 TRILLION unfunded liability and the big O wants to expand the entitlement to everyone. Our government agencies are notoriously unresponsive, inefficient, corrupt, and subject to political influence. I doubt that is much different anywhere, no matter how much people fools themselves.


 

Of course you will also continue with the mud slinging that all us dreaded Libertarians ("boo hiss" to quote FJV) want people dying in the streets, and cheer on the death of the poor.


 

Are you under some kind of inane impression that we haven't heard your broken record enough times by now? 



Buzzard, if you don't want to hear about a better mixed healthcare systems as an alternative to the current mess in the US then my suggestion to you is not to respond to my posts, because that is what I believe would work and I have provided PLENTY of evidence to back it up. I am personally more than a bit sick of hearing your repetative, unimaginative whinges about how all government intervention in healthcare has to be evil as well so that is the the approach I will be taking with you on this topic.
 
Quote    Reply

Aussiegunneragain    Reefdiver   9/16/2009 5:56:57 AM


You just seem so wrong in your thinking in terms of America I don't know where to start with you. Understand this - the idea that everyone's healthcare should be the same - regardless of their achievements in life - is so socialist that it makes me want to scream. 

Demostrate where I ever said that this should be the case and when you find out you can't I'll have an apology thanks. If you aren't big enough to do this then at least have the decency to shut up.
 
Quote    Reply

Hugo    correction   9/16/2009 6:32:55 AM
Which industry? If you impose a tax on an import you favour a particular industry at the expense of another. If you place a tax on steel imports, you hurt the automotive, railroad, and steel industries.
 
..should read "automotive, railroad and aircraft industries."
 
Quote    Reply

Aussiegunneragain    Hugo   9/16/2009 6:41:56 AM
Thankyou for your genuine and considered attempt to outline an alternative position. I was getting so fed up with the idiotic rants about "socialism" that we were getting that I was about to give up on this forum as a lost cause. Now in response to your answers:

You can't genuinely make reference to strict libertarian principles when every other area of society and the economy is not according to the principle of liberty. But let's assume that you'd give a libertarian the job of organizing health care what would the system likely look like? Well it would be a market system. I imagine the market would split healthcare into a variety of products but there might perhaps be two principle products given a small amount of regulation (which I'll get to in a moment). 

I agree that libertarian principles don't entirely govern modern economies but they are influential. I responded in that way because I was getting a black and white argument about them from other posters.

In the first segment there would be a minor insurance policy covering things like visits to your GP because of the cold or flu or your dentist or optometrist. I am not sure what this would cost and I am not sure I feel confident in making an estimate. Naturally such a policy would be voluntary which would likely raise the price somewhat of those wishing to purchase a policy. There is little doubt the market would offer separate GP, dental and optical policies. Many wouldn't opt for an optical policy if they didn't have an issue with their eyes or didn't think they were likely to develop one. You can make a guess as well as I on what such policies would cost but the probability of dying from such a policy is so very remote it can, I believe, be removed from any calculation. Essentially, those forgoing a policy risk having to pay for anti-bacterial products, lenses, root canal work themselves. 

 The problem with this is that as I have previously discussed those services are the ones which are likely to prevent worse illnesses but they are the ones that people go cheap on. Of course the libertarian would say "that is entirely their responsibility" to which I would respond "I don't entirely agree". I will go into the reasoning for this later.

Under a libertarian policy it would also be the case that some doctors would provide volunteer work as they do now and have always done. Some of those uninsured may resort to waiting in (perhaps) long lines to see such a voluntary doctor. 

 I am sure that they would but I am also sure that less serious medical needs for the uninsured would be addressed in this way than would be the case with an option that involved government regulation, remuneration or ownership. People aren't going to volenteer to provide the same level of service that they would if it was they are paid to do so, they couldn't afford to and in any case not everybody is that charitable.
 
Under a libertarian policy, it would be perfectly reasonable for the insurance companies to discriminate based on lifestyle choices. A person whose unhealthy lifestyle choices, e.g. diet, consumption of drugs or alcohol that caused illness would be expected to pay either more or change those lifestyle choices thus reducing the overall cost of insurance to those showing more personal responsibility. If your doctor tells you to lose weight then you would be expected to do so or risk being paid more. The government here has a role, as libertarians acknowledge, in preventing fraud in such instances.

I don't mind that idea within reasonable bounds, e.g. insurance companies should be allowed to charge a reasonably amount, say up to 10% more for people with unhealthy lifestyles. Enforcing it would be hard though. The bigger problem is that we would get many people who would become uninsurable risks due to things that they can't help, such as old age. I also have a moral problem with people being allowed to die unnecessarily because they couldn't afford medical care to treat the result of their stupid mistakes. We all make mistakes and I don't have a problem with people living with most of them and learning from the experience, but its pretty hard to learn from your mistake if you are dead. Terribly "socialist dogooder" of me I  know but that is just my belief on the matter"

Under a truly libertarian policy, the provision of medical care would become a lot less expensive. Instead of visiting a university educated doctor only for him to tell me that I have a cold, instead I could visit a qualified nurse or other professional. Perhaps there would be different classes of doctors with different levels of education.&nb

 
Quote    Reply

Hugo    AG   9/16/2009 8:39:53 AM
 

I agree that libertarian principles don't entirely govern modern economies but they are influential. I responded in that way because I was getting a black and white argument about them from other posters.

 

I disagree. I think it needs to be made clear that there is a very large practical difference between liberal (in the classical, not contemporary American definition) and libertarian. I see very few if any examples of Austrian economic principles predominant in our societies. We have government controlled financial and healthcare markets, centralized planning of monetary supplies, schools, universities, trade, roads, judiciary, etc etc. Liberals are a problem for libertarians because they argue for serious compromise which ultimately means social-democrats and others on the left end up blaming free markets and a lack of regulation for problems that in fact are caused by government interference. The recent financial crisis is an excellent case in point. Many of the current problems in US healthcare are a result of government regulation. The left, or, in the US,  Democratically inclined are quick to blame the marketplace, whereas some liberals defend the status quo which is itself not at all free. A libertarian is strongly at odds with both.

 

 The problem with this is that as I have previously discussed those services are the ones which are likely to prevent worse illnesses but they are the ones that people go cheap on. Of course the libertarian would say "that is entirely their responsibility" to which I would respond "I don't entirely agree". I will go into the reasoning for this later.

 

They might, I don?t know to be honest. I am tremendously disappointed with the healthcare system in Germany where I live (or at least for GP services, I have been lucky enough to avoid anything more serious to date). I saw four different GPs for weeks a few years ago before getting a correct diagnosis for glandular fever (sic? In German it has the wonderful title of Pfeifferischedrusenfieber in honour of its discoverer). My little girl also was taken to two doctors before a correct diagnosis of ear infection which my wife even suggested to the doctor could be the issue after reading about its symptoms on the internet. An extra sleepless night and tremendous pain for a nine month old because there are no real consequences of doing his job. My mother (not diagnosed in Germany) was continually falsely diagnosed when she had stomach cancer that was life threatening. I try and remain objective but I have at times been disgusted with government regulated healthcare. Incidentally, I think German GPs are on strike today because they are protesting against the rates they receive for a particular service for publically insured patients. Rationing healthcare through price controls isn't working well here. Of course German doctors, like most Germans enamoured with Bismarckian respect for authority are too blind to see the real problem. They don't complain about government itself but only want more from it.

 

To cut my rant short, I will say that I certainly choose to see the doctor less often because I am, after numerous personal experiences, convinced that regular GPs in this government run system are completely incompetent. If there are many others thinking similarly then how does that improve our health?

 

 I am sure that they would but I am also sure that less serious medical needs for the uninsured would be addressed in this way than would be the case with an option that involved government regulation, remuneration or ownership. People aren't going to volenteer to provide the same level of service that they would if it was they are paid to do so, they couldn't afford to and in any case not everybody is that charitable.

 

 

 
Quote    Reply

buzzard       9/16/2009 9:31:43 AM
Buzzard, if you don't want to hear about a better mixed healthcare systems as an alternative to the current mess in the US then my suggestion to you is not to respond to my posts, because that is what I believe would work and I have provided PLENTY of evidence to back it up. I am personally more than a bit sick of hearing your repetative, unimaginative whinges about how all government intervention in healthcare has to be evil as well so that is the the approach I will be taking with you on this topic.
 
 You have provided questionable evidence which people have disputed. Of course, as usual with your style of debate, you summarily ignore any evidence provided which you find inconvenient. You were the same way in the gun debate. You keep shoveling in more questionable nonsense to peddle the same BS, and you somehow expect that we should be grateful.  This thread is clear evidence of that. It's an article by an Obama sycophant who's pushing hyperbolic anecdotes. As I said before, there's anecdotes on both sides of this issue and pushing in more hyperbole is rubbish. I can recall your news story about the one guy dying from cancer without insurance in spite of the fact that the cancer survival rate in the U.S. is the best in the world. What a load of unambiguous BS you are selling.
 
Sorry, we have plenty evidence here of what the government is (in)capable of. We have examples in states of systems which are pretty much identical to the socialized systems you favor and they are huge piles of cost overruns and corruption. We have clear evidence that what you advocate doesn't work here, and yet you keep peddling it. Of course people are going to call you on your BS, because the odor is getting overwhelming. 
 
I find it almost completely shocking that you call yourself libertarian when about the only things you visit the U.S. forum for, is to guide us into the promised land via gun control and socialized medicine. The level of either hypocrisy or ignorance is astounding. 
 
Quote    Reply
PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23   NEXT



StrategyWorld.com© 1998 - 2012StrategyWorld.com. All rights Reserved. StrategyWorld.com, StrategyPage.com, FYEO, For Your Eyes Only and Al Nofi's CIC are all trademarks of StrategyWorld.com Privacy Policy