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Subject: What the US Healthcare debate is really about
Aussiegunneragain    9/14/2009 6:05:16 AM
Dreading getting sick not healthy Andrew Sullivan | September 14, 2009 Article from: The Australian THERE are many valid criticisms to be made of US healthcare, but let me tell a story that helps explain its strengths. Only 15 years ago, the retrovirus HIV was killing thousands in the US - six times as many young Americans have died of AIDS as died in Vietnam -- and researchers had never found a way to stop such a sophisticated and constantly evolving organism from burying itself in people's immune systems and slowly destroying them. I was told in 1993 that I had a few years to live. I write this 16 years later with a stronger immune system than I have ever measured before. The US's much-maligned healthcare system did this. Without this vast and free market in medical care and pharmaceuticals, without the potential for making large amounts of money from affluent and insured patients, the innovation of treatments would never have occurred at the pace it did. Yes, publicly funded research was also vital - but it is rightly restricted to basic science, not finessing drugs for humans. Now we have dozens of anti-HIV drugs, from private companies competing with each other, and my life is saved. How do I put a price on that? Here's the catch. This miraculous process was possible for me only because I had insurance through my employer. When I quit my job editing The New Republic, in part to grapple with HIV's toll, my employer compassionately allowed me to stay on staff at a low salary solely to protect me from going without insurance at all. You see: once without insurance in America, I would never have been able to get it again. I would have had a "pre-existing condition" and no insurance company would have accepted me. An uninsured freelancer with HIV had one option if he were to survive - heading fast into personal bankruptcy. If I had finally lost everything, I would then have been able to apply for public assistance. Losing everything you have ever had to prevent your own death was nearly my fate. It is the fate of many in the US - not the very poor, who are helped, however badly and expensively, in hospital emergency rooms - but the working middle classes who lose their healthcare soon after they lose their job. It is this that is at the centre of Barack Obama's proposals for reform. Yes, finding a way to control soaring costs is essential, and Obama's final compromise bill, especially if it is without an option for an affordable publicly provided plan, doesn't do nearly enough. Nonetheless, what the President was really selling last week was a little more middle-class security. And that was why it was more politically lethal, I suspect, than the pundit class has yet to absorb. Some see the potency of this move. Back in 1993, when the Clintons proposed a much more ambitious plan, Republican strategist Bill Kristol wrote a famous memo arguing that the Right should not negotiate or propose an alternative but should simply do all it could to kill the bill. In it, he shrewdly homed in on the danger as he saw it: "The long-term political effects of a successful Clinton healthcare bill will be even worse - much worse (than its medical consequences). It will re-legitimise middle-class dependency for 'security' on government spending and regulation. It will revive the reputation of the party that spends and regulates, the Democrats, as the generous protector of middle-class interests. And it will at the same time strike a punishing blow against Republican claims to defend the middle class by restraining government." I understand this sentiment and, given my libertarian leanings, tend to resist government intervention when it is unnecessary. I opposed the Clinton plan as too centrally dictated and bureaucratic. In an ideal world, I'd like to scrap the US system entirely, sever the connection between employment and health insurance, allow individuals to buy insurance from competing healthcare exchanges, and leave the rest to fee-for-service medicine. But it is a political fact that this won't happen in America. Obama's speech last week was therefore directed at people like me: suspicious of change and government, but aware the system is both inefficient and at some point cruel, even immoral. He played the Burkean card: "I believe it makes more sense to build on what works and fix what doesn't, rather than try to build an entirely new system from scratch." He dangled the prospect of relief: "As soon as I sign this bill, it will be against the law for insurance companies to drop your coverage when you get sick, or water it down when you need it most." And here's the best pitch for universal healthcare to conservatives in a long time: "That large-heartedness - that concern and regard for the plight of others - is not a partisan feeling. It is not a Republican or a Democratic feeling. It, too, is part of the American character." This patriotic appeal was the real import o
 
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Hugo    FJV   9/15/2009 9:10:17 AM
 

The government should do nothing and tax nothing.

 

Because of this you will meet the same resistance if the govt. wants to:

- Increase regulation on banks and/or coorperations.

- Stop unilateral free trade policies and levee import taxes.

- Use provisions in the trade agreements against dumping of foreign products.

- Increase taxes on the top 1% income group.

- Increase any taxes.

- Fund research and start a trade policy.

- Bail out strategic industries.

- Stop illegal immigration.

Anything really.....

 

 

You constantly criticize liberty FJV so I am going to challenge your critiques because I feel that they are misinformed.

- Increase regulation on banks and/or coorperations.

 

There is scarecely an industry that is more heavily regulated than banks and other financial institutions. It gets worse though because our entire money supply is centrally planned. In other words there is no free market in financial services. Indeed the government goes out saving some institutions (Goldman Sachs) and deciding to not save others (Lehmann Brothers). The idea that the financial services industry is a free market devoid of regulation is the height of absurdity. Government allows banks to be money lenders and warehouses of the very same money they lend. Perhaps you can explain that one. Why was it in the great crash of 1929 that banks across the United States, where the industry was heavily regulated, went bust and why the total number of banks in Canada where the industry was far less regulated, the total number of banks going bust was the precisely neat sum of zero. Oh sure, more government, that's a tremendous idea.

 

- Stop unilateral free trade policies and levee import taxes.

 

Who is helped by disruptions to free trade and the imposition of import taxes? Why should the public pay more for goods than they would under a free market? Do you enjoy paying more for groceries because the European Union enacts trade tariffs and pays farmers for crops that it then warehouses to keep from the market? Do you like the idea that impoverished African communities cannot export agricultural products to Europe because they are rendered uncompetitive by politicians?

 

- Use provisions in the trade agreements against dumping of foreign products.

 

Dumping is a favourite word of the politicians without them being very capable of proving the allegations. What is wrong with lower prices for consumers? Do you believe the government should be protecting high prices in order to improve the bottom line of domestic producers? Funny how dumping claims so often come from those markets where a domestic competitor is present.

 

- Increase taxes on the top 1% income group.

 

Why stop t

 
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buzzard       9/15/2009 9:57:28 AM
So if US health policy continues to let people go into personal bankruptcy when they get shafted by their health insurance company as a result of a chronic illness, like you seem to be advocating should be the case, what do you suggest doing with the individual once his or her money for treatment has run out?
 
As opposed to a system in  which if the government decides that treating you isn't worth the money, and you die?
 
For someone who claims to know a lick about economics, I find glaring gaps in your reasoning. 
 
There are horror stories on both sides of this debate. Focusing on them injects more hyperbole into the situation than anything useful. Of course that won't stop people (especially you, since I've seen you thrive on hyperbolic nonsense here and in the gun debates).
 
For everyone shafted by an insurance company, someone can dig up someone shafted by a government over health care. In a system where private insurers have to compete for customers, you can opt for a different provider and a different plan. In a system where the government is the guarantor of health, you can move to another country. Which do you think is more flexible as options go? 
 
I know, it is once more time for our lecture on the wonders of the oh-so-great Aussie hybrid socialized with private insurance mix. And on you will go with how our institutions can be magically fixed with the wave of your Aussie wand and somehow all those incredibly inefficient government agencies will suddenly become Florence Nightingale instead of Nurse Ratchet. Medicare is a $37 TRILLION unfunded liability and the big O wants to expand the entitlement to everyone. Our government agencies are notoriously unresponsive, inefficient, corrupt, and subject to political influence. I doubt that is much different anywhere, no matter how much people fools themselves.
 
Of course you will also continue with the mud slinging that all us dreaded Libertarians ("boo hiss" to quote FJV) want people dying in the streets, and cheer on the death of the poor.
 
Are you under some kind of inane impression that we haven't heard your broken record enough times by now? 
 
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buzzard       9/15/2009 10:08:48 AM
Increase regulation on banks and/or coorperations.
- Stop unilateral free trade policies and levee import taxes.
- Use provisions in the trade agreements against dumping of foreign products.
- Increase taxes on the top 1% income group.
- Increase any taxes.
- Fund research and start a trade policy.
- Bail out strategic industries.
- Stop illegal immigration.
 
 Did you ever find that evil libertarian who killed your puppy?
 
On another note, did you ever hear of the Smoot Hawley tarrif act? It's a bit of history that you might want to learn about. It had some rather serious repercussions. 
 
I can certainly see you being in favor of it full bore.
 
Oh, and it's a rare libertarian who is in favor of illegal immigration. You generally find their advocates on the Left, so keep trying. 
 
Pretty much everything you whine about above is one form of transfer payment or another. You whine about taxes twice (don't you think the latter would have covered it?). You whine about imports twice, and one line could have covered that as well if you could write worth a damn. Lastly you whine about people not liking corporate welfare, which historically works about as well as a trade war.
 
 Transfer payments don't make people better off in general. It just makes some people better off at the expense of the majority. Check out the Thatcher videos in the other thread. Any cursory glance at history shows that a economic policy based on wealth transfer merely results in a race for the bottom. You can close an income gap by making everyone poorer, but that's about all you accomplish. Protecting a company does about as much good since you're just rewarding inefficiency. Brilliant policy idea you have there.
 
I've clouted you with facts before and I'll do it again. I demonstrated that your models of the success based on industrial policies are a failure, and yet you keep trying. It's almost sad to be quite honest. It's like you rant about something and when people correct you, you stick your fingers in your ear and holler "neener neener". I've seen better debating skill from 8 year olds. 
 
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reefdiver       9/15/2009 10:44:43 AM

So if US health policy continues to let people go into personal bankruptcy when they get shafted by their health insurance company as a result of a chronic illness, like you seem to be advocating should be the case, what do you suggest doing with the individual once his or her money for treatment has run out? The only option according to strict libertarian principles would be to let the person fend for themselves, which either means dying or if they are lucky getting continued treatment through charities.

 

You probably wouldn't worry about this because you can use your wife's knowledge of health insurance products to ensure that you have a policy that prevents it happening from you. However, the reality is that health insurance is a complex product and many  people will have difficulty differentiating a good policy from a bad one, that is if they actually get the choice rather than having their employer choose for them. They want the assurance that well-designed regulations around things like pre-existing conditions to protect them from making a mistake that can't be corrected because it would result in them ending up dead. As far as I am concerned that is a quite reasonable expectation for people to have of their government and if they want to elect a government that provides it and you don't like that, then that is just bad luck for you.


You misunderstand in so many ways, as I likely do as well. Understand this however, the system in the US does have problems and virtually everyone recognizes such. My wife and I understand this better than most.  Even we have substantial problems with health insurance. What we, as many others do as well, is stand resolute on keeping the government from taking over health insurance and healthcare. Government bureacracy has never shown itself to be frugal, and the several hundred managers in Congress have proven themselves incompetent. This is what we battle.
 
The system can be fixed, but Congress continually fails in any efforts because each time they simply want to start over. If they want to succeed at real reform they need to incrementally address and fix the problems. They must not mess up the system for everyone to take care of a smaller group. 
 
You just seem so wrong in your thinking in terms of America I don't know where to start with you. Understand this - the idea that everyone's healthcare should be the same - regardless of their achievements in life - is so socialist that it makes me want to scream. "Spread the health" along with "spread the wealth" - thats just not America. Maybe its ok for some countries.  If they called the system "socialized health insurance" instead of the "public option" - it wouldn't even make it off a printer in America before it was killed. 
 
 
 
 
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Hugo    AG   9/15/2009 11:10:44 AM
 

The only option according to strict libertarian principles would be to let the person fend for themselves, which either means dying or if they are lucky getting continued treatment through charities.

 

You can't genuinely make reference to strict libertarian principles when every other area of society and the economy is not according to the principle of liberty. But let's assume that you'd give a libertarian the job of organizing health care what would the system likely look like? Well it would be a market system. I imagine the market would split healthcare into a variety of products but there might perhaps be two principle products given a small amount of regulation (which I'll get to in a moment). 

 

In the first segment there would be a minor insurance policy covering things like visits to your GP because of the cold or flu or your dentist or optometrist. I am not sure what this would cost and I am not sure I feel confident in making an estimate. Naturally such a policy would be voluntary which would likely raise the price somewhat of those wishing to purchase a policy. There is little doubt the market would offer separate GP, dental and optical policies. Many wouldn't opt for an optical policy if they didn't have an issue with their eyes or didn't think they were likely to develop one. You can make a guess as well as I on what such policies would cost but the probability of dying from such a policy is so very remote it can, I believe, be removed from any calculation. Essentially, those forgoing a policy risk having to pay for anti-bacterial products, lenses, root canal work themselves. 

 

Under a libertarian policy it would also be the case that some doctors would provide volunteer work as they do now and have always done. Some of those uninsured may resort to waiting in (perhaps) long lines to see such a voluntary doctor. 

 

Under a libertarian policy, it would be perfectly reasonable for the insurance companies to discriminate based on lifestyle choices. A person whose unhealthy lifestyle choices, e.g. diet, consumption of drugs or alcohol that caused illness would be expected to pay either more or change those lifestyle choices thus reducing the overall cost of insurance to those showing more personal responsibility. If your doctor tells you to lose weight then you would be expected to do so or risk being paid more. The government here has a role, as libertarians acknowledge, in preventing fraud in such instances.

 

Under a truly libertarian policy, the provision of medical care would become a lot less expensive. Instead of visiting a university educated doctor only for him to tell me that I have a cold, instead I could visit a qualified nurse or other professional. Perhaps there would be different classes of doctors with different levels of education. The overall cost of medicine would be reduced. 

 

Drug markets would be entirely deregulated with (depending on the libertarian drawing up your policy) stronger or weaker (more likely) patent rights. Some libertarians argue that patents are no promoter of innovation and thus should be scrapped. That would only leave generic drugs essentially and the industry would be split between research companies selling their research to manufacturers. This is really another discussion but whatever the policy, drugs are going to get cheaper because the government is no longer going to spend billions employing an army of people to tell consumer what they can and can?t consume for which illnesses. Consumers would rely on independent testing firms just as they currently do for other goods. The only reason that highly reputable firms do not currently exist for drugs is because the government has monopolized that role for itself and charges us billions for their service.

 

The insurance market would be entirely liberalized. Insurance would no longer be coupled to employers and insurers would no longer be restricted to certain markets. The overall cost of insurance is thus significantly reduced as a result of this freedom of operation. National insurers in heavy competition with one another would emerge because the barriers to entry become so minimal.

 

The number of legal cases reduces to only a few instances. Consumers of drugs and medical care are now responsible for their own choices. The only obligation on drugs companies and doctors is to communicate risks to consumers of health care. If a drug manufacturer communicates to a consumer that a particular drug is likely to be beneficial because of the following,

 
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Hugo    Libertarians and patents.   9/15/2009 11:24:18 AM
Some libertarians argue that patents are no promoter of innovation and thus should be scrapped. 
 
I wrote the above but I need to be more careful.  In addition to the above the main argument of libertarians against patent protection is that knowledge is not an exclusive property right (i.e. Einstein cannot patent E = MC^2) and thus cannot be assigned a single individual or company because of a lack of exclusivity.  Maintaining a large government authority to enforce that exclusivity is further evidence of the difficulty in assigning exclusivity to non exclusive property.  This is an ongoing debate.
 
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Old Grunt    Libertarians and patents.   9/15/2009 12:44:10 PM
So what is the position of Libertarians on patents for devices?
I'm interested in the "reward for effort" perspective.
 
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Hugo       9/15/2009 2:18:06 PM

So what is the position of Libertarians on patents for devices?

I'm interested in the "reward for effort" perspective.


There is no single position.  Some are deeply in favour of strong patents believing that an invention is a property right that deserves exclusive control.  Others, and I believe this is a more recent phenomenon led by Kinsella, believe that a patent right is a breach of another's property right.  They might explain it as such. Say you and I have a bag of lemons, a juicer, some sugar.  Well let's say you work for a week determining the perfect mixture for lemonade.  You discover it and then patent that recipe.  I have the same inputs and want to reproduce the formula because my customers are buying your product now.  When I manage to reproduce your secret formula you take me to court for breach of patent.  I argue (along the lines of Kinsella) that your patent restricts my ability to use my property (lemons, sugar etc) the way I want to.
 
I think traditionally libertarians have been in strong favour of patent protection but there is a dissenting school of thought.
 
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sentinel28a       9/15/2009 3:26:56 PM
I may have misread FJV's post, but it sounded to me that he was criticizing those positions, not supporting them.  (Though there are a few of those positions I would support myself--illegal immigration being one.) 
 
I guess Nan must've got a job with the Obama administration.  Isn't that their present tactic? "You're criticizing Obamacare, so you must be in the pay of the health insurance industry." I hate Obamacare.  When do I get my check from Blue Cross?
 
Kind of like saying "You support Israel.  You must be in the Jewish lobby."  (I want my check from the Mossad, too.)  Or for that matter, "You support Obama.  You must be a paid-up member of SEIU or Acorn!"
 
There are good health insurance policies out there and there are bad ones.  People can find out a little about either by doing this remarkable thing called "research."  The point is that, however screwed up the healthcare industry is now, we have the freedom to choose if we want this or that policy, if we don't, or even if we want insurance at all.  Obama wants to take that away.  I ask "Why?"  Because I have this sneaking feeling it's not because Obama is my pal and wants only what's best for me.
 
 
 
 
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FJV    Yawn   9/15/2009 4:03:43 PM
Government cannot be the solution or even a part of the solution if you wanna reform healthcare. That is, if you want to be true to libertarian ideology.
 
The only thing that the libertarian ideology allows the government is to do less (ideally nothing). To be truly honest  in the libertarian point of view libertarian looking at the government to fix healthcare is to look at the wrong place.
 
In their view a solution would have to come from the market mechanisms, by somehow having an ensurer come up with a new and improved "product" that will provide healthcare at a lower cost.
 
I don't share those views. Even worse in my opinion those views are based on some very flawed assumptions about how the world functions. And in my opinion where these ideas have been put into practice they have failed and caused a lot of damage. The fact that despite this some people advocate putting more effort in a practice that lead to faillure does not improve my opionion of them.
 
 
 
 
 
 
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