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Subject: What the US Healthcare debate is really about
Aussiegunneragain    9/14/2009 6:05:16 AM
Dreading getting sick not healthy Andrew Sullivan | September 14, 2009 Article from: The Australian THERE are many valid criticisms to be made of US healthcare, but let me tell a story that helps explain its strengths. Only 15 years ago, the retrovirus HIV was killing thousands in the US - six times as many young Americans have died of AIDS as died in Vietnam -- and researchers had never found a way to stop such a sophisticated and constantly evolving organism from burying itself in people's immune systems and slowly destroying them. I was told in 1993 that I had a few years to live. I write this 16 years later with a stronger immune system than I have ever measured before. The US's much-maligned healthcare system did this. Without this vast and free market in medical care and pharmaceuticals, without the potential for making large amounts of money from affluent and insured patients, the innovation of treatments would never have occurred at the pace it did. Yes, publicly funded research was also vital - but it is rightly restricted to basic science, not finessing drugs for humans. Now we have dozens of anti-HIV drugs, from private companies competing with each other, and my life is saved. How do I put a price on that? Here's the catch. This miraculous process was possible for me only because I had insurance through my employer. When I quit my job editing The New Republic, in part to grapple with HIV's toll, my employer compassionately allowed me to stay on staff at a low salary solely to protect me from going without insurance at all. You see: once without insurance in America, I would never have been able to get it again. I would have had a "pre-existing condition" and no insurance company would have accepted me. An uninsured freelancer with HIV had one option if he were to survive - heading fast into personal bankruptcy. If I had finally lost everything, I would then have been able to apply for public assistance. Losing everything you have ever had to prevent your own death was nearly my fate. It is the fate of many in the US - not the very poor, who are helped, however badly and expensively, in hospital emergency rooms - but the working middle classes who lose their healthcare soon after they lose their job. It is this that is at the centre of Barack Obama's proposals for reform. Yes, finding a way to control soaring costs is essential, and Obama's final compromise bill, especially if it is without an option for an affordable publicly provided plan, doesn't do nearly enough. Nonetheless, what the President was really selling last week was a little more middle-class security. And that was why it was more politically lethal, I suspect, than the pundit class has yet to absorb. Some see the potency of this move. Back in 1993, when the Clintons proposed a much more ambitious plan, Republican strategist Bill Kristol wrote a famous memo arguing that the Right should not negotiate or propose an alternative but should simply do all it could to kill the bill. In it, he shrewdly homed in on the danger as he saw it: "The long-term political effects of a successful Clinton healthcare bill will be even worse - much worse (than its medical consequences). It will re-legitimise middle-class dependency for 'security' on government spending and regulation. It will revive the reputation of the party that spends and regulates, the Democrats, as the generous protector of middle-class interests. And it will at the same time strike a punishing blow against Republican claims to defend the middle class by restraining government." I understand this sentiment and, given my libertarian leanings, tend to resist government intervention when it is unnecessary. I opposed the Clinton plan as too centrally dictated and bureaucratic. In an ideal world, I'd like to scrap the US system entirely, sever the connection between employment and health insurance, allow individuals to buy insurance from competing healthcare exchanges, and leave the rest to fee-for-service medicine. But it is a political fact that this won't happen in America. Obama's speech last week was therefore directed at people like me: suspicious of change and government, but aware the system is both inefficient and at some point cruel, even immoral. He played the Burkean card: "I believe it makes more sense to build on what works and fix what doesn't, rather than try to build an entirely new system from scratch." He dangled the prospect of relief: "As soon as I sign this bill, it will be against the law for insurance companies to drop your coverage when you get sick, or water it down when you need it most." And here's the best pitch for universal healthcare to conservatives in a long time: "That large-heartedness - that concern and regard for the plight of others - is not a partisan feeling. It is not a Republican or a Democratic feeling. It, too, is part of the American character." This patriotic appeal was the real import o
 
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sentinel28a       11/5/2009 6:55:05 PM
What broccoli argument?  I can't find it.  It might be a strawman indeed.
 
And if you actually, you know, read what I wrote, AGA, you'll find that I freely admitted that the Founding Fathers weren't perfect or divine.  They admitted it themselves.  Jefferson knew damn well that the 3/4ths compromise was a dodge that wasn't going to work for long--but hoped that slavery would die out soon (all the indicators were that it would).  It was either that or watch the US shatter over the issue, which the FFs were desperate to avoid. 
 
No, of course they weren't perfect, and men who were NOT slaveowners (since apparently you missed that part as well) were not pleased with the compromise...but went along with it because they too could see no way out that didn't involve dissolution of the country.  Was it right? No, and I think most if not all of the FFs would've agreed that it wasn't.  You can call Jefferson a moral coward if you wish, and I might even agree with you.  But apparently we're supposed to throw out the entire thing because a minority of the people who wrote and signed the Constitution were slaveowners, at a time when slavery was not uncommon.
 
Maybe we should abolish the country of Australia because its founders were felons. 
 
The Constitution makes no provision for healthcare for the same reason it doesn't list anything about the creation of an air force--because neither issue existed at the time.  The Founding Fathers would've wondered what the hell universal healthcare was, at a time when healthcare usually consisted of grabbing a knife and cutting yourself open to let the foulness out, or taking one of Rush's patented pills and taking a quick trip to the outhouse.  Hell, an air force would've made more sense than universal healthcare to Benjamin Franklin, who considered an airborne invasion of England with balloons and even sort of invented the concept of the aerial gunship.  It's not that they were for or against the idea--the idea never occurred to them.
 
Where conservatives like myself believe that the FFs would've raised an eyebrow over universal healthcare is Pelosi's claim that the Constitution gives Congress the right to impose it on the American people.  It doesn't.  The Constitution is a document that limits the power of government, and Pelosi's claiming that somewhere in there it says Congress can compel Americans to buy into a government program.  It doesn't say that, and it goes against every principal in the document.  Given Pelosi's nodding familiarity with the Constitution--I say with no sarcasm that you know it better than she does, AGA--that doesn't surprise me.
 
Now if Congress wants to present a Constitutional amendment to allow Congress to enact universal healthcare, I say go for it.  If 2/3 of the states of the country agree, then fine.  We passed Prohibition once, so it wouldn't be the only dumb thing ever attached to the Constitution.
 
 
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EvilFishy       11/5/2009 7:13:05 PM

Right on the money, Senty, as usual and well said.

To be fair to the founding fathers, they did leave a constitutional out for the fomration on an Air Force when they wrote in Article I, section 8:

---To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years; ---

An air force is just that: an army (albeit with specialized roles).

As you well know, had our Founding Fathers considered the thought of so-called Universal Healthcare, they would have rejected it out right because they were against taking one man-s hard earned money to give it to somebody else.

 
 
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warpig       11/5/2009 8:05:59 PM

What broccoli argument?  I can't find it.  It might be a strawman indeed.
 

 
Where conservatives like myself believe that the FFs would've raised an eyebrow over universal healthcare is Pelosi's claim that the Constitution gives Congress the right to impose it on the American people.  It doesn't.  The Constitution is a document that limits the power of government, and Pelosi's claiming that somewhere in there it says Congress can compel Americans to buy into a government program.  It doesn't say that, and it goes against every principal in the document.  Given Pelosi's nodding familiarity with the Constitution--I say with no sarcasm that you know it better than she does, AGA--that doesn't surprise me.
 

Now if Congress wants to present a Constitutional amendment to allow Congress to enact universal healthcare, I say go for it.  If 2/3 of the states of the country agree, then fine.  We passed Prohibition once, so it wouldn't be the only dumb thing ever attached to the Constitution.


 
Here is the apparently-outrageous "Broccoli Argument" in full, from an earlier post of mine last week:  Please bear in mind the above-quoted words from your own post before you read the below quote.
 
P.S.  Only for the sake of accuracy I'll remind you that the slave compromise was 3/5ths of a person, not 3/4ths.  I wouldn't want to see you indocrinating your students wth lies and propaganda.  ;-)
 
P.P.S.  Senty, carry on, you are right on target.  It's sad that so few Americans understand the nature of the Constitution and its primary function of specifically ennumerating the only powers granted by it to the federal government, which powers and which federal government solely exist only because they are established by that Constitution.  It's even sadder that so many people, American and otherwise, spew their crap regardless of the blatantly obvious nature of the Constitution that is easily discovered if the facts of history are sought with at least even just a modicum of diligence.
 
==========================
 

What the US Healthcare debate is really about... as far as conservatives are concerned:

 

-------

 

"Can President Barack Obama and Congress enact legislation that orders Americans to buy broccoli? If so, where did they get that authority? What provision in the Constitution empowers the federal government to order an individual to buy a product he does not want? This is not a question about nutrition. It is not a question about whether broccoli is good for you or about the relative merits of broccoli versus other foods. It is a question about the constitutional limits on the power of the federal government. It is a question about freedom. Can President Obama and Congress enact legislation that orders Americans to buy health insurance? They might as well order Americans to buy broccoli. They have no legitimate authority to do either. Yet neither Obama nor the current leadership in Congress seems to care about the constitutional limits on their power. They are now attempting to exert authority over the lives of Americans in a way no president and Congress has done before. ... All versions of the health care bill under consideration in Congress would order Americans to buy health insurance. If any of these bills is enacted, the first thing it would accomplish is the amputation of a vital part of our Constitution, and the death of another measure of our liberty." --columnist Terence Jeffrey...

 

 
 
 
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PlatypusMaximus       11/6/2009 6:15:25 AM
The broccoli argument stems from liberal's apparent need to have this explained to them in crayons and fingerpaints.
 
No, you aren't allowed to do that.
You should respect other people's property.
Eat your broccoli, it's good for you.
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Mr absent minded Professor Sentenial   11/6/2009 7:43:50 AM
Since you somehow managed to entirely forget the very article that started this latest discussion on this thread, even though you yourself responded to a retort that I made to it within two or three posts, may I suggest you go back to the beginning and read everything again entirely then reconsider your reply. You will find a number of posts that I wrote that show your latest post misrepresentative of what I have actually argued. 
And by the way, before you try to patronise me with your superior teacher attitude again, make sure that you have read all of the information sitting under your nose.
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Hugo   11/6/2009 9:19:41 AM
All laws are ultimately only enforcable because of the threat of brute force, and whether or not a particular law has a moral or ethical foundation is ultimately only a matter of opinion for those with the power. The Founding Fathers addressed the former point with their insistance on the right to bear arms and for the people to hold the Government to account with the threat of violence.
 
However, they failed to acknowledge the second by insisting that certain rights are inaliable, rather than addressing the reality that this was only their opinion. All that they achieved by writing a Constitution that attempted to enshrined these rights was to hand most of the power to interpret how these rights were the applied to a bunch of unelected judges with their own opinions, including entrenching the likes of that stupid bitch Sonia Satomayor in place for life. How that is somehow better than allowing the majority a more direct ability to cut its own track is beyond me.
 
You are making a similar mistake. You can insist that personal property rights are inaliable if you like but for all intents and purposes they are not because the people with the power, which in a defuse way is the majority, disagree with you. The only leverage that you have is to attempt to persuede the majority that your way is best. Frankly your ideology has a snowflakes chance in hell of ever being accepted 100% and especially if you are going to tell those with the power "to hell with you", so you'd better start looking for compromises that you are prepared to make. Otherwise you'll only every be powerless and irrelevant.
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Warpig   11/6/2009 9:23:28 AM

 

P.P.S.  Senty, carry on, you are right on target.  It's sad that so few Americans understand the nature of the Constitution and its primary function of specifically ennumerating the only powers granted by it to the federal government, which powers and which federal government solely exist only because they are established by that Constitution.  It's even sadder that so many people, American and otherwise, spew their crap regardless of the blatantly obvious nature of the Constitution that is easily discovered if the facts of history are sought with at least even just a modicum of diligence.

  

I don't suppose it has ever occurred to you that they do understand the original intent of the Constitution but don't see why they should be dictated to by a bunch of men who have been dead for 200 years ago.

 
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reefdiver       11/6/2009 11:01:50 AM




 
P.P.S.  Senty, carry on, you are right on target.  It's sad that so few Americans understand the nature of the Constitution and its primary function of specifically ennumerating the only powers granted by it to the federal government, which powers and which federal government solely exist only because they are established by that Constitution.  It's even sadder that so many people, American and otherwise, spew their crap regardless of the blatantly obvious nature of the Constitution that is easily discovered if the facts of history are sought with at least even just a modicum of diligence.

I don't suppose it has ever occurred to you that they do understand the original intent of the Constitution but don't see why they should be dictated to by a bunch of men who have been dead for 200 years ago.



If they want, then they should legally change the Constitution by the amendment process, rather than simply ignoring it and letting legislators and the judicial change it as they please. We have a Constitution specifically to avoid such.


 
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warpig       11/6/2009 12:28:37 PM




 P.P.S.  Senty, carry on, you are right on target.  It's sad that so few Americans understand the nature of the Constitution and its primary function of specifically ennumerating the only powers granted by it to the federal government, which powers and which federal government solely exist only because they are established by that Constitution.  It's even sadder that so many people, American and otherwise, spew their crap regardless of the blatantly obvious nature of the Constitution that is easily discovered if the facts of history are sought with at least even just a modicum of diligence.


I don't suppose it has ever occurred to you that they do understand the original intent of the Constitution but don't see why they should be dictated to by a bunch of men who have been dead for 200 years ago.



 
 
Obviously thieves of every stripe don't see why they should be dictated to, and proceed to violate the standards of the society they leech off of.
 
 
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Aussiegunneragain       11/6/2009 7:42:36 PM









 

P.P.S.  Senty, carry on, you are right on target.  It's sad that so few Americans understand the nature of the Constitution and its primary function of specifically ennumerating the only powers granted by it to the federal government, which powers and which federal government solely exist only because they are established by that Constitution.  It's even sadder that so many people, American and otherwise, spew their crap regardless of the blatantly obvious nature of the Constitution that is easily discovered if the facts of history are sought with at least even just a modicum of diligence.





I don't suppose it has ever occurred to you that they do understand the original intent of the Constitution but don't see why they should be dictated to by a bunch of men who have been dead for 200 years ago.








If they want, then they should legally change the Constitution by the amendment process, rather than simply ignoring it and letting legislators and the judicial change it as they please. We have a Constitution specifically to avoid such.


The amendment process itself was set up by those men 200 years ago specifically to make change difficult and dictate the actions of future generations against the will of the majority. I suspect that this is why many people are happy enough to see flexible interpretation with respect to constitutional matters, they don't want to blindly live by the rules of a bunch of dead guys who were concieted enough to think that their principles were always going to chart the best path. That's one of the important principles of legislating, if you pass a bad law that does not have moral authority people will feel justified in looking for a way to find their way around it. That is what has happenned with the amendment provisions in the US Constitution.
 
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