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Subject: What the US Healthcare debate is really about
Aussiegunneragain    9/14/2009 6:05:16 AM
Dreading getting sick not healthy Andrew Sullivan | September 14, 2009 Article from: The Australian THERE are many valid criticisms to be made of US healthcare, but let me tell a story that helps explain its strengths. Only 15 years ago, the retrovirus HIV was killing thousands in the US - six times as many young Americans have died of AIDS as died in Vietnam -- and researchers had never found a way to stop such a sophisticated and constantly evolving organism from burying itself in people's immune systems and slowly destroying them. I was told in 1993 that I had a few years to live. I write this 16 years later with a stronger immune system than I have ever measured before. The US's much-maligned healthcare system did this. Without this vast and free market in medical care and pharmaceuticals, without the potential for making large amounts of money from affluent and insured patients, the innovation of treatments would never have occurred at the pace it did. Yes, publicly funded research was also vital - but it is rightly restricted to basic science, not finessing drugs for humans. Now we have dozens of anti-HIV drugs, from private companies competing with each other, and my life is saved. How do I put a price on that? Here's the catch. This miraculous process was possible for me only because I had insurance through my employer. When I quit my job editing The New Republic, in part to grapple with HIV's toll, my employer compassionately allowed me to stay on staff at a low salary solely to protect me from going without insurance at all. You see: once without insurance in America, I would never have been able to get it again. I would have had a "pre-existing condition" and no insurance company would have accepted me. An uninsured freelancer with HIV had one option if he were to survive - heading fast into personal bankruptcy. If I had finally lost everything, I would then have been able to apply for public assistance. Losing everything you have ever had to prevent your own death was nearly my fate. It is the fate of many in the US - not the very poor, who are helped, however badly and expensively, in hospital emergency rooms - but the working middle classes who lose their healthcare soon after they lose their job. It is this that is at the centre of Barack Obama's proposals for reform. Yes, finding a way to control soaring costs is essential, and Obama's final compromise bill, especially if it is without an option for an affordable publicly provided plan, doesn't do nearly enough. Nonetheless, what the President was really selling last week was a little more middle-class security. And that was why it was more politically lethal, I suspect, than the pundit class has yet to absorb. Some see the potency of this move. Back in 1993, when the Clintons proposed a much more ambitious plan, Republican strategist Bill Kristol wrote a famous memo arguing that the Right should not negotiate or propose an alternative but should simply do all it could to kill the bill. In it, he shrewdly homed in on the danger as he saw it: "The long-term political effects of a successful Clinton healthcare bill will be even worse - much worse (than its medical consequences). It will re-legitimise middle-class dependency for 'security' on government spending and regulation. It will revive the reputation of the party that spends and regulates, the Democrats, as the generous protector of middle-class interests. And it will at the same time strike a punishing blow against Republican claims to defend the middle class by restraining government." I understand this sentiment and, given my libertarian leanings, tend to resist government intervention when it is unnecessary. I opposed the Clinton plan as too centrally dictated and bureaucratic. In an ideal world, I'd like to scrap the US system entirely, sever the connection between employment and health insurance, allow individuals to buy insurance from competing healthcare exchanges, and leave the rest to fee-for-service medicine. But it is a political fact that this won't happen in America. Obama's speech last week was therefore directed at people like me: suspicious of change and government, but aware the system is both inefficient and at some point cruel, even immoral. He played the Burkean card: "I believe it makes more sense to build on what works and fix what doesn't, rather than try to build an entirely new system from scratch." He dangled the prospect of relief: "As soon as I sign this bill, it will be against the law for insurance companies to drop your coverage when you get sick, or water it down when you need it most." And here's the best pitch for universal healthcare to conservatives in a long time: "That large-heartedness - that concern and regard for the plight of others - is not a partisan feeling. It is not a Republican or a Democratic feeling. It, too, is part of the American character." This patriotic appeal was the real import o
 
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PlatypusMaximus       10/8/2009 9:44:56 PM
Yup, I was appealing to PM's greed and selfishness because I didn't see any evidence that he is anything but those things. It's another argument for meeting social obligations apart from because you care about the people that you are helping and it is just as valid and not contractory in the slightest. 
 
 
Greed is defined not by wanting to keep what you earned, it's defined by wanting others wealth.
 
 
It is defined by you wanting to make the rules for everybody...based upon what you think.
It's defined by you wanting to make the definition of greed...based upon what you think you see.

 
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FJV    BS answers   10/11/2009 11:14:38 AM
Smoot Hawley. Source:
"http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/SmootHawley.htm"
- The Smoot Hawley tariff was introduced after the stock market crash of 1929 and for that reason the 1929 depression cannot be blamed on the tariff.
- The effect of the Smooth  Hawley tariff was neglible.
"For conservatives, the greatest economic disaster in history needs a villain, and not just any villain. Only a rapscallion the size of Big Government will suffice, and in this respect, the Smoot-Hawley Tariff of 1930 suits their needs perfectly.

According to this story, the Smoot-Hawley Tariff raised taxes on imported goods as high as 60 percent. Not only did this burden American consumers with another tax, but it effectively killed international trade. Soon all nations were raising tariffs and rushing behind the walls of protectionism. The subsequent collapse of international trade caused the Great Depression.

For a complete myth, it is astounding how much this one gets repeated. Sharp observers have probably already noticed there is a problem with dates. The stock market crashed in October, 1929, but Hoover did not sign the tariff into law until June 17, 1930. So more sophisticated conservatives have refined the story: the tariff turned an otherwise ordinary recession into a full-blown depression."

But even this is a gross exaggeration, and top economists reject it out of hand. Peter Temin, an economic historian at MIT, told The Wall Street Journal on February 22, 1996 that this historical revisionism is "wrong," according to the consensus of the nation's most respected economists. Paul Krugman, one of the world's top international trade economists, and one who is expected to win a Nobel Prize for his revolutionary theories in favor of free trade, calls the Smoot-Hawley theory "incredible." 

Ricardo has long since been replaced by Heckscher-Ohlin.  Is it too much to ask you to read this model before continuing this conversation?
 
These are the assumptions on which the Heckscher-Ohlin model is based Source: "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckscher-Ohlin_model:
1-Both countries have identical production technology.
2-Production output must have a constant return to scale.
3-The technologies to produce the 2 commodities differ.
4-Labour mobility within contries.
5-Labour immobility between counties.
6-Capital mobility within countries.
7-Capital immobility between countries.
8-Commodities have the same price everywhere.
 
Just as a thought excersize I would suggest looking for examples in the real world  that violate these assumptions. For instance immigrant workers from Mexico violate assumption number 5. So assumption number 5 is flawed.
 
 
 
 

 
 
 
 
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Hugo       10/11/2009 6:38:26 PM

Smoot Hawley. Source:


"http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/SmootHawley.htm"

- The Smoot Hawley tariff was introduced after the stock market crash of 1929 and for that reason the 1929 depression cannot be blamed on the tariff.


- The effect of the Smooth  Hawley tariff was neglible.


"For conservatives, the greatest economic disaster in history needs a villain, and not just any villain. Only a rapscallion the size of Big Government will suffice, and in this respect, the Smoot-Hawley Tariff of 1930 suits their needs perfectly.



According to this story, the Smoot-Hawley Tariff raised taxes on imported goods as high as 60 percent. Not only did this burden American consumers with another tax, but it effectively killed international trade. Soon all nations were raising tariffs and rushing behind the walls of protectionism. The subsequent collapse of international trade caused the Great Depression.



For a complete myth, it is astounding how much this one gets repeated. Sharp observers have probably already noticed there is a problem with dates. The stock market crashed in October, 1929, but Hoover did not sign the tariff into law until June 17, 1930. So more sophisticated conservatives have refined the story: the tariff turned an otherwise ordinary recession into a full-blown depression."






But even this is a gross exaggeration, and top economists reject it out of hand. Peter Temin, an economic historian at MIT, told The Wall Street Journal on February 22, 1996 that this historical revisionism is "wrong," according to the consensus of the nation's most respected economists. Paul Krugman, one of the world's top international trade economists, and one who is expected to win a Nobel Prize for his revolutionary theories in favor of free trade, calls the Smoot-Hawley theory "incredible." 




Ricardo has long since been replaced by Heckscher-Ohlin.  Is it too much to ask you to read this model before continuing this conversation?

 

These are the assumptions on which the Heckscher-Ohlin model is based Source: "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckscher-Ohlin_model:

1-Both countries have identical production technology.


2-Production output must have a constant return to scale.

3-The technologies to produce the 2 commodities differ.

4-Labour mobility within contries.


5-Labour immobility between counties.


6-Capital mobility within countries.

7-Capital immobility between countries.


8-Commodities have the same price everywhere.

 

Just as a thought excersize I would suggest looking for examples in the real world  that violate these assumptions. For instance immigrant workers from Mexico violate assumption number 5. So assumption number 5 is flawed.



I never mentioned the depression era trade restrictions and although I don't know as much as I'd like to, I do know that they did not cause the great depression.  However, a very large number of government policies and programs begun under Hoover and continued and expanded by the incredibly dreadful President Roosevelt made an already bad situation (also ignited by government monetary policy expansion) into one of lasting misery.  Tariffs were only a part of that. 
 
Assumptions 1,2,5,6,7 are not observable in the real world. But Heckscher-Ohlin needs assumptions as does any model and naturally it does not reflect the real world in it's entirety and as you've mentioned some of the assumptions are not observable.  But the model remains useful.  Krugman mentioned in his Nobel winning work why Sweden and the United States traded with one another.  Just because assumptions are not observable does not mean that the model isn't valid, it's a merely a simplification of the real world.  Sometimes models collapse because the assumptions are plainly critical but here with H-O they serve largely as a simplifier and it is not as though breaking the assumptions destroy the implications of the model - labour migration a
 
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Hugo    FJV   10/11/2009 6:40:47 PM
Oh, and I would ask you to provide some sort of argument as to why my answers are "BS"  which I presume isn't an abbreviation for business school.
 
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PlatypusMaximus       10/13/2009 9:39:29 AM

At the Table, but on the Menu

The health-care industry learns the price of appeasing Congress.


The Senate Finance Committee holds its big health-care vote today, but the bigger story is that the health-care industry may finally be coming to its senses. After months of serving as Rose Garden props, insurers, doctors and hospitals are discovering they've been taken for a ride on ObamaCare. Too bad it may be too late to stop the train.

The best scales-from-the-eyes moment comes courtesy of America's Health Insurance Plans, the industry lobby. Yesterday AHIP released an important PricewaterhouseCoopers study showing that the Finance bill would on average add some $1,700 a year to the cost of family coverage in 2013. A decade from now, family premiums would cost $4,000 more than if Congress did nothing, and singles would pay about $1,500 more. Hardest hit would be the individual market, with rates rising by 49%, but even the largest employers would see increases between 9% and 11%.

The study's findings won't shock anyone who's read the bill's details, but its provenance might: In a deal cut earlier this year, the insurance industry acquiesced to rules requiring them to take all comers, regardless of health status or history, and also charge them more or less the same premiums. In return, Congress would subsidize individuals to buy their products and provide new customers by requiring everyone to buy insurance or pay a tax penalty.

A spokesman for Finance Chairman Max Baucus dismissed the AHIP report as a "hatchet job . . . bought and paid for by the same health insurance companies that have been gouging too many consumers for too long as they stand in the way of reform yet again." Talk about ungrateful. If insurers really had been standing in the way, —or even willing to educate the public about an agenda that will raise consumer prices—ObamaCare might not now be rushing to passage.

The irony is that AHIP is now arguing for a more left-wing bill, claiming the Baucus plan isn't "universal" enough. The Congressional Budget Office thinks it will cover only 91% of the population, in part because Democrats reduced the "individual mandate" tax on people who don't buy insurance.

Now they'll pay only $750 after eight years of noncompliance, from an original maximum of $3,800 in the first year, because taxing people looked bad politically. But without this brute tax force, healthier people will opt out of expensive insurance pools and only buy coverage when they need it. It doesn't take a consulting firm to prove that this is an adverse-selection disaster waiting to happen.

The AHIP study also illuminates the other taxes and regulations that will increase insurance costs and weren't part of the bargain. The 40% excise tax on "Cadillac" health plans—above $8,000 for individuals and $21,000 for families—is structured so that it will ultimately hit the Chevy plans too, much like the alternative minimum tax. Reductions in Medicare payments mean that doctors and hospitals will be forced to raise prices in the private market, which will cause a 1.2% increase in the underlying health costs that drive premiums.

Speaking of providers, the hospitals agreed to $155 billion in Medicare and Medicaid cutbacks, on the theory that they, like the insurers, would also make the revenue up on volume. But since the coverage mandate has become swiss cheese, both the Federation of American Hospitals and the American Hospital Association are also growing more combative behind the scenes.

The American Medical Association may also be having second thoughts. The doctors lobby had endorsed the House health bill because it eliminated the "sustainable growth rate," or SGR, a formula that automatically reduces Medicare payments to doctors when costs run too high. The SGR has been overturned every year since 2003, however, because Medicare price controls are already stringent. Yet eliminating the SGR will cost some $245 billion, and Mr. Baucus wanted to preserve the fiction that his new entitlement will reduce the deficit. So to game the 10-year budget math, he patches the problem only for a single year.

The AMA didn't even play hard to get, but apparently it didn't realize that Democrats want to keep this formula in place. Pretending that doctors will eat a 25%-plus pay cut makes Medicare's fiscal condition seem less dire, and the annual fire drill on the "doctors fix" ensures that campaign contributions keep coming. And here we thought you had to be smart to get into med school.

All of these lobbies should have known better. The insurers have been especially foolish, given that ObamaCare has all a

 
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sentinel28a       10/13/2009 2:56:44 PM
Smoot-Hawley was passed in 1930, but the bill itself hit the House floor in May 1929, before the crash.  Hoover himself opposed it, saying it would lead to a trade war, but signed it under pressure from Congress.  Hoover was right.  The resultant worldwide raising of tariffs made the Great Depression worse.
 
Did it cause the Great Depression?  No, and I never claimed it did, FJV.  However, it made things worse.  It was a bad idea, and it's not a conservative boogeyman--not when it so clearly failed.  Besides...given that most conservative these days are Republicans, and Smoot-Hawley was a Republican idea, I don't see how this can be taken as a partisan argument.
 
There were many factors that led to the Depression; Smoot-Hawley was just one of them.  If we're facing Le Zookeeper's fantasy world, it would be due to several factors as well:  Obamacare, cap-and-trade, trade wars with Mexico and China, and stimulus pork.  I don't actually think we're headed for Great Depression Part II, but I think stagflation is more than likely at this point.
 
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warpig       10/26/2009 11:30:08 AM
What the US Healthcare debate is really about... as far as conservatives are concerned:
 
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"Can President Barack Obama and Congress enact legislation that orders Americans to buy broccoli? If so, where did they get that authority? What provision in the Constitution empowers the federal government to order an individual to buy a product he does not want? This is not a question about nutrition. It is not a question about whether broccoli is good for you or about the relative merits of broccoli versus other foods. It is a question about the constitutional limits on the power of the federal government. It is a question about freedom. Can President Obama and Congress enact legislation that orders Americans to buy health insurance? They might as well order Americans to buy broccoli. They have no legitimate authority to do either. Yet neither Obama nor the current leadership in Congress seems to care about the constitutional limits on their power. They are now attempting to exert authority over the lives of Americans in a way no president and Congress has done before. ... All versions of the health care bill under consideration in Congress would order Americans to buy health insurance. If any of these bills is enacted, the first thing it would accomplish is the amputation of a vital part of our Constitution, and the death of another measure of our liberty." --columnist Terence Jeffrey...

 
 
 
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sentinel28a       10/27/2009 5:07:57 AM
I think I may have the solution here:  health care as a Constitutional amendment. 
 
No, really.  This might work.  Then Obama and Congress would have the Constitutional authority.  Hey, if it's really what the people want, Obama should have no sweat getting it ratified.  And if it doesn't work in practice, no worries.  Prohibition didn't either.
 
 
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Aussiegunneragain       10/27/2009 8:20:55 AM
"Broccoli is high in vitamins C, K, and A, as well as dietary fiber; it also contains multiple nutrients with potent anti-cancer properties, such as diindolylmethane and small amounts of selenium.[7]... A single serving provides more than 30 mg of Vitamin C and a half-cup provides 52 mg of Vitamin C.[8]... The 3,3'-Diindolylmethane found in broccoli is a potent modulator of the innate immune response system with anti-viral, anti-bacterial and anti-cancer activity.[9]...[10]... Broccoli also contains the compound glucoraphanin, which can be processed into an anticancer compound sulforaphane, though the benefits of broccoli are greatly reduced if the vegetable is boiled more than ten minutes.[6]... A high intake of broccoli has been found to reduce the risk of aggressive prostate cancer.[11]... Broccoli consumption has also shown that it is beneficial in the prevention of heart disease.[12]..."
 
 
Not a bad idea it would seem, mandating brocolli. At the very least it is high in fibre so would be of assistance in curing the full of sh..... I mean those whose imagination is constipated by an overly fundamentalist approach to a document about freedome written over 200 years ago by a bunch of slave owners .... .
 
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sentinel28a       10/27/2009 2:26:27 PM
John Adams owned slaves?
 
Benjamin Franklin owned slaves?
 
I need to have AGA be a guest lecturer in my American history courses; apparently there was something I missed.
 
(You were probably joking, AGA, but it was a dumb joke.)
 
 
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