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Subject: What the US Healthcare debate is really about
Aussiegunneragain    9/14/2009 6:05:16 AM
Dreading getting sick not healthy Andrew Sullivan | September 14, 2009 Article from: The Australian THERE are many valid criticisms to be made of US healthcare, but let me tell a story that helps explain its strengths. Only 15 years ago, the retrovirus HIV was killing thousands in the US - six times as many young Americans have died of AIDS as died in Vietnam -- and researchers had never found a way to stop such a sophisticated and constantly evolving organism from burying itself in people's immune systems and slowly destroying them. I was told in 1993 that I had a few years to live. I write this 16 years later with a stronger immune system than I have ever measured before. The US's much-maligned healthcare system did this. Without this vast and free market in medical care and pharmaceuticals, without the potential for making large amounts of money from affluent and insured patients, the innovation of treatments would never have occurred at the pace it did. Yes, publicly funded research was also vital - but it is rightly restricted to basic science, not finessing drugs for humans. Now we have dozens of anti-HIV drugs, from private companies competing with each other, and my life is saved. How do I put a price on that? Here's the catch. This miraculous process was possible for me only because I had insurance through my employer. When I quit my job editing The New Republic, in part to grapple with HIV's toll, my employer compassionately allowed me to stay on staff at a low salary solely to protect me from going without insurance at all. You see: once without insurance in America, I would never have been able to get it again. I would have had a "pre-existing condition" and no insurance company would have accepted me. An uninsured freelancer with HIV had one option if he were to survive - heading fast into personal bankruptcy. If I had finally lost everything, I would then have been able to apply for public assistance. Losing everything you have ever had to prevent your own death was nearly my fate. It is the fate of many in the US - not the very poor, who are helped, however badly and expensively, in hospital emergency rooms - but the working middle classes who lose their healthcare soon after they lose their job. It is this that is at the centre of Barack Obama's proposals for reform. Yes, finding a way to control soaring costs is essential, and Obama's final compromise bill, especially if it is without an option for an affordable publicly provided plan, doesn't do nearly enough. Nonetheless, what the President was really selling last week was a little more middle-class security. And that was why it was more politically lethal, I suspect, than the pundit class has yet to absorb. Some see the potency of this move. Back in 1993, when the Clintons proposed a much more ambitious plan, Republican strategist Bill Kristol wrote a famous memo arguing that the Right should not negotiate or propose an alternative but should simply do all it could to kill the bill. In it, he shrewdly homed in on the danger as he saw it: "The long-term political effects of a successful Clinton healthcare bill will be even worse - much worse (than its medical consequences). It will re-legitimise middle-class dependency for 'security' on government spending and regulation. It will revive the reputation of the party that spends and regulates, the Democrats, as the generous protector of middle-class interests. And it will at the same time strike a punishing blow against Republican claims to defend the middle class by restraining government." I understand this sentiment and, given my libertarian leanings, tend to resist government intervention when it is unnecessary. I opposed the Clinton plan as too centrally dictated and bureaucratic. In an ideal world, I'd like to scrap the US system entirely, sever the connection between employment and health insurance, allow individuals to buy insurance from competing healthcare exchanges, and leave the rest to fee-for-service medicine. But it is a political fact that this won't happen in America. Obama's speech last week was therefore directed at people like me: suspicious of change and government, but aware the system is both inefficient and at some point cruel, even immoral. He played the Burkean card: "I believe it makes more sense to build on what works and fix what doesn't, rather than try to build an entirely new system from scratch." He dangled the prospect of relief: "As soon as I sign this bill, it will be against the law for insurance companies to drop your coverage when you get sick, or water it down when you need it most." And here's the best pitch for universal healthcare to conservatives in a long time: "That large-heartedness - that concern and regard for the plight of others - is not a partisan feeling. It is not a Republican or a Democratic feeling. It, too, is part of the American character." This patriotic appeal was the real import o
 
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PlatypusMaximus       10/6/2009 10:16:27 AM
Your "social obligation" begins AND ENDS with you. You cannot make people care or have compassion. Take you for example...
You advocate force and intimidation against Group A to indebt them to Group B, with nothing in return, simply because Group B exists. Well, group A exists, too. You advocate giving more rights to one group and more responsibility to another. You want to pick and choose based upon what you think What did group A do to incur the debt, and what are they owed in return, when your thumb is on society?
 
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Aussiegunneragain       10/7/2009 3:33:51 AM

Your "social obligation" begins AND ENDS with you. You cannot make people care or have compassion. Take you for example...

You advocate force and intimidation against Group A to indebt them to Group B, with nothing in return, simply because Group B exists. Well, group A exists, too. You advocate giving more rights to one group and more responsibility to another. You want to pick and choose based upon what you think What did group A do to incur the debt, and what are they owed in return, when your thumb is on society?

 

No, you can't make people care or have compassion but if the majority does exhibit those morals they can make the remainder pay their fair share towards helping the truely needy. However, putting aside any notions that you give a damn about anybody but yourself I'd suggest to you that it is in your own interest to support the sort of basic assistance that hard up people need to survive and work back to independence. Group B could be any of us at some stage in our lives. For example, what makes you think that you can't suffer some miserable mental illness, can't manage your own affairs, be alienated from your family, be unable to pay you insurance premiums and be left to the tender mercies of the street? If that were to happen you'd be more than happy to put your hand out for taxpayer funded assistance in order to get back on your feet.
 
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Hugo    AG   10/7/2009 5:26:00 AM
 

I disagree and there is historical precedent showing that such a society will survive and prosper.

 

First, such a nation could defend itself. Most wars fought haven?t required government conscription. There would be a defence force if necessary (likely). There are numerous examples of citizens successfully defending themselves without conscripted government standing armies. Besides, historical precedent shows that engaging in war against guerilla resistance requires between 6 to 1 and 10 to 1 proportions of aggressors to defenders. Today a nuclear arsenal would likely be sufficient enough to deter an aggressor (before you state that there would be no funds for defence you have to tell me why there are then enormous funds from wealthy philanthropists and private individuals for all manner of things). Further, a free society is likely to generate a great deal of sympathy from the world community, there is also historical precedent for this.

 

There is zero historical precedent to suggest that the "losers" of a free market turn on the system. That is even if we assume that there are losers, a notion that I reject. A prosperous free market is not a zero sum game. Where civilians have led uprisings against internal authorities it was against an entrenched feudal class who ran a system that was very much anti-free market and reliant on bondage and the prevention of voluntary exchange.

 

I don't believe there is an obligation to society. Perhaps a duty but that is voluntary and to be determined by the individual. If there was an obligation then who would decide it? Perhaps an elected politician who determined that a young person, anonymous to him, was obligated to go fight a war whilst he, himself, carefully arranged for his own son to fulfill an obligation to the National Guard? Perhaps an obligation to pay taxes by a politician who went by the name Kennedy for example, knowing full well that his family's wealth was tied into a family trust that could not be touched. You cannot have social obligation without the threat and use of force to enforce it. Therefore it is the enforced social obligations of the kind you subscribe to that are fundamentally immoral.

 

I believe it is your argument regarding what a person has a right to that is flawed. It is impossible to not use public property in our society because government grants itself a monopoly, enforced by violence, for so many goods. If the government was not able to have monopolies and not able to pay for those assets through violent confiscation, then a citizen could pay for those goods and services he wanted in a free market and then yes, every individual would be entitled to 100% of what they produce. Whether you believe it is right or not, what the system you advocate always results in is some group of politicians and lobbyists determining what is good for the public (which is coincidentally also good for their reelection prospects and oligopolist corporate interests) and what needs to be forcibly confiscated to pay for it. Whether or not restrictions to free trade, allocation of subsidies to the Feminist League of Transylvania or a budget for the provision of a National Bicycle Museum is good for the public can never, ever, ever be known. Without free markets there is no method of calculation of what can possibly be good for the public, only speculation. The democratic politician knows no more what is good for the public than does the Soviet bureaucrat sitting in an office overlooking the Kremlin having to decide how many umbrellas to produce for the citizens of Northern Kamchatka. Our democratic regimes which determine what is good for the public, who should pay for it, and how much they should pay result in waste, corruption, the destruction of wealth, economic mismanagement, malinvestment, permanently rising taxes, debts and public employment, a reduction of civil liberties, a massive increase in individual time preferences, environmental destruction, reduced social cohesion and moral decay.  Personally, I have strong doubts as to whether that is a system that is sustainable.

 
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warpig       10/7/2009 9:41:36 AM




Your "social obligation" begins AND ENDS with you. You cannot make people care or have compassion. Take you for example...

You advocate force and intimidation against Group A to indebt them to Group B, with nothing in return, simply because Group B exists. Well, group A exists, too. You advocate giving more rights to one group and more responsibility to another. You want to pick and choose based upon what you think What did group A do to incur the debt, and what are they owed in return, when your thumb is on society?



No, you can't make people care or have compassion but if the majority does exhibit those morals they can make the remainder pay their fair share towards helping the truely needy. However, putting aside any notions that you give a damn about anybody but yourself I'd suggest to you that it is in your own interest to support the sort of basic assistance that hard up people need to survive and work back to independence. Group B could be any of us at some stage in our lives. For example, what makes you think that you can't suffer some miserable mental illness, can't manage your own affairs, be alienated from your family, be unable to pay you insurance premiums and be left to the tender mercies of the street? If that were to happen you'd be more than happy to put your hand out for taxpayer funded assistance in order to get back on your feet.


Herein lies three major problems with liberals and socialism.
 
First, this asserts the notion that advocating socialism in America is motivated by caring about others.  Well, I'm sure that many American socialists are indeed motivated thusly.  However, for that to be an argument for socialism as opposed to liberty pretty much necessitates the utterly false mirror-image argument that advocating liberty is *not* motivated by caring for others.  Clearly false, just from looking at the philanthropic history of America. 
Second, this asserts the notion that socialism in America provides basic assistance to hard-up people.  Well, I'm sure that some degree of socialism in America does provide some degree of assistence to hard-up people.  However, for that to be an argument for socialism as opposed to liberty pretty much necessitates the utterly false mirror-image argument that liberty does *not* provide some degree of assistence to hard-up people.  Clearly false, just from looking at the philanthropic history of America. 
 
Third, the rest of the paragraph above is just an emotional appeal that essentially just relies on empathy by trying to put the reader in the shoes of the subject.  "If that were to happen you'd be more than happy to put your hand out for taxpayer funded assistance in order to get back on your feet."  That's nothing more than an appeal to greed/selfishness and an application of situational ethics.
 
 
 
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Hugo    My bad   10/7/2009 10:29:34 AM
Whether or not restrictions to free trade, allocation of subsidies to the Feminist League of Transylvania or a budget for the provision of a National Bicycle Museum is good for the public can never, ever, ever be known.
 
I should have split the above into two.  Naturally restrictions on free trade can easily be shown to be not good for the general citizenry.
 
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FJV    OK now show   10/7/2009 3:29:49 PM
Naturally restrictions on free trade can easily be shown to be not good for the general citizenry.
 
Ok, you make the claim, now prove it!
Prove that any restriction on free trade, like for instance trade in nuclear bombs, is not good for the general citizenry.
Or if you think that's an unfair reductio ad absurdum.
Prove that any restriction the FAA puts on the airline trade, is not good for the general citizenry.
Or if you think that's still too much of an unfair reductio ad absurdum.
Prove that any restriction the FDA puts on the medical trade, is not good for the general citizenry.
Or if you think even that's still too much of an unfair reductio ad absurdum. 
Prove that Ricardo's theory of competetive advantage applies even when the assumptions on which the theory is based are not valid anymore.

An extraordinary claim demands an extraordinary proof. Since you guys make the claim time and time again that it's so easily proven.
 
My hunch is that it is actually damn hard *1) to prove these claims. But since everybody is so gung ho about how easy it is, I'm gonna be a bastard and demand that it's show. Which should not take much time since it is so "easy" to do.

1*) Shown by the fact that economists disagree amongst themselves. And these are the guys that have put years of their lives into studying this stuff.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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sentinel28a       10/7/2009 3:36:38 PM
Economists and historians are pretty much in agreement that Hoover's Smoot-Hawley tariff ensured the Depression was much worse than the rough recession it might have been. 
 
So yeah, there's a good example of government interference that screwed everything up.  I've never run into, heard, or read anyone who defends Smoot-Hawley as a good idea. 
 
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Hugo    FJV   10/7/2009 6:12:42 PM

Naturally restrictions on free trade can easily be shown to be not good for the general citizenry.

 


Ok, you make the claim, now prove it!




Prove that any restriction on free trade, like for instance trade in nuclear bombs, is not good for the general citizenry.



Or if you think that's an unfair reductio ad absurdum.





Prove that any restriction the FAA puts on the airline trade, is not good for the general citizenry.

Or if you think that's still too much of an unfair reductio ad absurdum.





Prove that any restriction the FDA puts on the medical trade, is not good for the general citizenry.

Or if you think even that's still too much of an unfair reductio ad absurdum. 




Prove that Ricardo's theory of competetive advantage applies even when the assumptions on which the theory is based are not valid anymore.





An extraordinary claim demands an extraordinary proof. Since you guys make the claim time and time again that it's so easily proven.

 

My hunch is that it is actually damn hard *1) to prove these claims. But since everybody is so gung ho about how easy it is, I'm gonna be a bastard and demand that it's show. Which should not take much time since it is so "easy" to do.



1*) Shown by the fact that economists disagree amongst themselves. And these are the guys that have put years of their lives into studying this stuff.




I'm happy to address all of your points.  Personally, I don't think you've put a lot of effort into this. Hardly very challenging.
 
1.  Trade in Nuclear Weapons.  First, nuclear weapons technology is already traded, between States, i.e governments.  Not only authoritarian regimes like North Korea but also our own democracies.  So let's not pretend there isn't some form of market already.  You can make the claim that this trade is beneficial or not but the point is that governments already trade in dangerous goods like armaments.
 
Second, allowing free and unrestricted trade does not mean that everything is traded.  Let us assume that a company in this world may start trading in nuclear weapons (as opposed to nuclear technology which is already happening).  First off, who is going to work for this company in a free society?  How is this company going to transport its goods to the purchaser?  It will have to navigate a minefield of private road owners (who probably would boycott the company outright), then move on to private railroad boycotters, moving on to private shipping company and aircraft boycotters who all prevent any dangerous materials moving on their pivate property (planes trains and automobiles not to mention roads, railroads and airspace).  Persons working at the company would also be prevented from using the private property of other citizens who were concerned about nuclear weapons being used.  Those persons would be ostracized from society, landlords throwing those weapons makers out of their homes onto their arses, principals throwing their children out of private schools (no government schools around to take them).  Employees wouldn't make it anywhere near the production facility.  This is all assuming that there is such a thing as a production facility given that land sellers might very well include a legal clause that no nuclear weapons making may take place on the land in question.
 
&nb
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Warpig   10/8/2009 8:32:42 AM
Herein lies three major problems with liberals and socialism.
 
First, this asserts the notion that advocating socialism in America is motivated by caring about others.  Well, I'm sure that many American socialists are indeed motivated thusly.  However, for that to be an argument for socialism as opposed to liberty pretty much necessitates the utterly false mirror-image argument that advocating liberty is *not* motivated by caring for others.  Clearly false, just from looking at the philanthropic history of America. 

Second, this asserts the notion that socialism in America provides basic assistance to hard-up people.  Well, I'm sure that some degree of socialism in America does provide some degree of assistence to hard-up people.  However, for that to be an argument for socialism as opposed to liberty pretty much necessitates the utterly false mirror-image argument that liberty does *not* provide some degree of assistence to hard-up people.  Clearly false, just from looking at the philanthropic history of America. 

I wasn't arguing that at all. I think that respecting people's liberty can be a caring act, just as I think that meeting our social obligations can be one as well. Both of these things can also be advocated out of selfishness.  I weigh heavily towards the side of liberty and personal responsibility and consider that we only have social obligations to the extent of not harming others, contributing to protect the nation, maintain law and order, maintain life and health, and making sure that people don't drop below a standard of living that is uncomfortable (i.e. they should be given food/clothing/rent stamps and have no surplus income for luxuries) but from which they can realistically improve their own lot if they choose to do so. That actually makes me right-wing in Australia and left-wingers often call me a fascist bastard because of it. Kinda ironic really.

I also acknowledge and admire the American commitment to philanthropy, I wish we were as good at it here. I just don't think that it can replace some government assistance to meet basic needs because not everybody is philanthropically minded and donates, whereas everybody can be taxed. The pertinant example of how this is the case in the US is the evidence of preventatable morbiity and mortality amongst the uninsured that has been presented throughout these discussions. If philanthropy could address all this then why hasn't it?
 
So what I would say is if you are being philanthropic then good for you, you have my respect. However, it seems a bit bloody minde to me for a philanthropic person who cares about the plight of others to want to let somebody who is too selfish to meet a minimal social obligation to help the unfortunate off the hook. I guess it depends on your priorities but I will always prioritise the lives of the truely vulnerable over a principle of liberty.
 
 Third, the rest of the paragraph above is just an emotional appeal that essentially just relies on empathy by trying to put the reader in the shoes of the subject.  "If that were to happen you'd be more than happy to put your hand out for taxpayer funded assistance in order to get back on your feet."  That's nothing more than an appeal to greed/selfishness and an application of situational ethics.
 
Yup, I was appealing to PM's greed and selfishness because I didn't see any evidence that he is anything but those things. It's another argument for meeting social obligations apart from because you care about the people that you are helping and it is just as valid and not contractory in the slightest.  
 
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sentinel28a       10/8/2009 7:20:10 PM
Didn't the FAA support deregulation?  That wrecked the airline industry for several years.
 
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