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Subject: What the US Healthcare debate is really about
Aussiegunneragain    9/14/2009 6:05:16 AM
Dreading getting sick not healthy Andrew Sullivan | September 14, 2009 Article from: The Australian THERE are many valid criticisms to be made of US healthcare, but let me tell a story that helps explain its strengths. Only 15 years ago, the retrovirus HIV was killing thousands in the US - six times as many young Americans have died of AIDS as died in Vietnam -- and researchers had never found a way to stop such a sophisticated and constantly evolving organism from burying itself in people's immune systems and slowly destroying them. I was told in 1993 that I had a few years to live. I write this 16 years later with a stronger immune system than I have ever measured before. The US's much-maligned healthcare system did this. Without this vast and free market in medical care and pharmaceuticals, without the potential for making large amounts of money from affluent and insured patients, the innovation of treatments would never have occurred at the pace it did. Yes, publicly funded research was also vital - but it is rightly restricted to basic science, not finessing drugs for humans. Now we have dozens of anti-HIV drugs, from private companies competing with each other, and my life is saved. How do I put a price on that? Here's the catch. This miraculous process was possible for me only because I had insurance through my employer. When I quit my job editing The New Republic, in part to grapple with HIV's toll, my employer compassionately allowed me to stay on staff at a low salary solely to protect me from going without insurance at all. You see: once without insurance in America, I would never have been able to get it again. I would have had a "pre-existing condition" and no insurance company would have accepted me. An uninsured freelancer with HIV had one option if he were to survive - heading fast into personal bankruptcy. If I had finally lost everything, I would then have been able to apply for public assistance. Losing everything you have ever had to prevent your own death was nearly my fate. It is the fate of many in the US - not the very poor, who are helped, however badly and expensively, in hospital emergency rooms - but the working middle classes who lose their healthcare soon after they lose their job. It is this that is at the centre of Barack Obama's proposals for reform. Yes, finding a way to control soaring costs is essential, and Obama's final compromise bill, especially if it is without an option for an affordable publicly provided plan, doesn't do nearly enough. Nonetheless, what the President was really selling last week was a little more middle-class security. And that was why it was more politically lethal, I suspect, than the pundit class has yet to absorb. Some see the potency of this move. Back in 1993, when the Clintons proposed a much more ambitious plan, Republican strategist Bill Kristol wrote a famous memo arguing that the Right should not negotiate or propose an alternative but should simply do all it could to kill the bill. In it, he shrewdly homed in on the danger as he saw it: "The long-term political effects of a successful Clinton healthcare bill will be even worse - much worse (than its medical consequences). It will re-legitimise middle-class dependency for 'security' on government spending and regulation. It will revive the reputation of the party that spends and regulates, the Democrats, as the generous protector of middle-class interests. And it will at the same time strike a punishing blow against Republican claims to defend the middle class by restraining government." I understand this sentiment and, given my libertarian leanings, tend to resist government intervention when it is unnecessary. I opposed the Clinton plan as too centrally dictated and bureaucratic. In an ideal world, I'd like to scrap the US system entirely, sever the connection between employment and health insurance, allow individuals to buy insurance from competing healthcare exchanges, and leave the rest to fee-for-service medicine. But it is a political fact that this won't happen in America. Obama's speech last week was therefore directed at people like me: suspicious of change and government, but aware the system is both inefficient and at some point cruel, even immoral. He played the Burkean card: "I believe it makes more sense to build on what works and fix what doesn't, rather than try to build an entirely new system from scratch." He dangled the prospect of relief: "As soon as I sign this bill, it will be against the law for insurance companies to drop your coverage when you get sick, or water it down when you need it most." And here's the best pitch for universal healthcare to conservatives in a long time: "That large-heartedness - that concern and regard for the plight of others - is not a partisan feeling. It is not a Republican or a Democratic feeling. It, too, is part of the American character." This patriotic appeal was the real import o
 
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Aussiegunneragain       10/5/2009 12:17:27 AM

>>

Since we were talking
about the "tyranny of the majority" it is good of you to provide a good
example of one that is potentially happening right now. It's the 15%
who aren't satisfied who are undoubtedly the ones who don't have
insurance, can't afford it and who are consequently suffering badly.
I'm not suggesting throwing the baby out with the bathwater
with respect to your current arrangments, but just ignoring the 15%
isn't acceptable either.

<<

You're right, point taken. None of the bills the Democrats are proposing, however, is anything other than a total remake of the US health care industry. Not only that, but the Democrats have blocked bills that proposed incremental changes to address gaps in the current system.  



I would hold them both equally to blame. The Dem's seem to be ideologically attached to the sort of big-government ideology that American's just won't buy, when there are clearly other solutions. The GOP on the other hand have a pole in their collective asses when it comes to mandating private health insurance, something which in practice wouldn't infringe the liberties of the vast majority of the population because most of them already have insurance or want it and which would protect the vulnerable. All participants in the debate need a bucket of cold common sense thrown over them.
 
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PlatypusMaximus       10/5/2009 4:31:28 AM
In the month leading to the election, these plans were presented and criticized on price... The economic impact that health insurance has on people, families and business.....as in people who pay are paying too much.
 
McCains plan of a refundable tax credit and shopping across state lines was was criticized as deregulation (the hissyfit word of the week at the time) which would give some states an unfair advantage. 
 
ANY mandate is an infringement upon your liberty. Why pay 900 billion dollars to mandate people spend the same old portion of GDP on insurance? That's some bill just for checking vitals and sending us back home.
 
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Hugo    AG   10/5/2009 5:10:06 AM
 

AG, I disagree with two of the above statements and one of its assumptions. First, the United States can no longer make the claim to being a constitutional republic. It is a democracy and has been for a long time to my regret.

 

I also reject the notion that the only alternative to democracy is authoritarianism. There have been monarchies (let me be clear in the outset that I am no monarchist) that have been far less authoritarian than many democracies for example. There are alternatives and I'll discuss another below.

 

The assumption that I disagree with is that we have democracy to thank for our prosperity. You're right that Germany, where I now live, has suffered tremendously under authoritarian regimes (can I assume you are referring to the NDSAP and East German dictatorships?). Those regimes were enormously destructive because of their habitual abuse of individual rights. But when you asked how Germany is doing now compared to earlier (which period?) are you referring to her citizens?

 

What alternative political system would I prefer to majoritarianism? I would prefer a government that is a guardian of the natural rights to life, liberty and property. A government that has no scope to interfere with the voluntary action of the individual who does not abuse the rights of others. I would prefer a radical decentralization of power. I reject entirely the notion that a government has the right to exercise violence against its citizens who have not abused the natural rights of other citizens. I deny the government ownership of anything as ownership in a free society can only be derived from being productive. I deny the government the right to interfere with the private property of others (I am not merely referring to physical property). The government?s only role is one of protecting law and order, enforcing voluntary contractual arrangements and preventing fraud. The government has no recourse to confiscatory behavior of any kind, be it taxes, forced conscription, or eminent domain laws. The government's resources are only those that the citizenry has voluntarily provided it with. Governments have in practice no ability to raise debt. The government has no regulatory authority other than the protection of natural rights. The government possesses no rights that the individual citizen does not possess. Citizens have the right to secede from a government they do not wish to have govern them as the ultimate guard against government abuse. The majority has no more right to violate the private property of others than does a single authoritarian figure. This is the society that I would much prefer to our current system of majoritarian authority or democracy.

 
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Aussiegunneragain    Hugo   10/5/2009 6:06:49 AM

Good luck.

 
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Hugo    AG   10/5/2009 6:15:48 AM

Good luck.




I hope that's sincere.  ; )
 
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warpig       10/5/2009 6:32:14 AM




Good luck.



I hope that's sincere.  ; )

 
We had that once, or at least far moreso than any other nation has, before or since.  Unfortunately, we've degenerated a great extent away from that ideal and back toward the excesses of lesser forms of government like democracy and fascism, just as the Founding Fathers feared could/would happen ("A republic, madam, if you can keep it").  That doesn't mean it can't be recovered peaceably, but as a practical matter it would be essentially impossible to do so ("But a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty, once lost, is lost forever.").  All we can do is try to restore that superior form of government as much as we can, whenever and wherever we can, and resist any and all attempts at diluting it further ("There are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.")--such as collectivist changes to our economy through fascism like mandating socialized health care.
 
 
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Hugo       10/5/2009 8:21:19 AM









Good luck.







I hope that's sincere.  ; )




 

We had that once, or at least far moreso than any other nation has, before or since.  Unfortunately, we've degenerated a great extent away from that ideal and back toward the excesses of lesser forms of government like democracy and fascism, just as the Founding Fathers feared could/would happen ("A republic, madam, if you can keep it").  That doesn't mean it can't be recovered peaceably, but as a practical matter it would be essentially impossible to do so ("But a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty, once lost, is lost forever.").  All we can do is try to restore that superior form of government as much as we can, whenever and wherever we can, and resist any and all attempts at diluting it further ("There are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.")--such as collectivist changes to our economy through fascism like mandating socialized health care.

 


That's true, the original United States (and to be fair some of the original colonies) was the best and closest thing to a free society we have seen.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       10/6/2009 8:08:25 AM




Good luck.






I hope that's sincere.  ; )
It is. I sincerely think you will need lots of good luck ;-).

 
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Hugo    AG   10/6/2009 8:34:04 AM









Good luck.













I hope that's sincere.  ; )


It is. I sincerely think you will need lots of good luck ;-).




I don't really believe in luck but can I permit myself the assumption that you agree that the society I promote is superior to our current one you just do not believe it is a realistic goal?
 
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Aussiegunneragain       10/6/2009 9:05:10 AM



















Good luck.



























I hope that's sincere.  ; )






It is. I sincerely think you will need lots of good luck ;-).










I don't really believe in luck but can I permit myself the assumption that you agree that the society I promote is superior to our current one you just do not believe it is a realistic goal?


I think there is a snowflakes chance in hell of a society like that surviving, unless it was on and island that nobody else knew about. 
 
First, it couldn't defend itself  in a nation threatenning war because it couldn't compel people to serve in the military or to contribute financially to operations. Many brave and generous souls might contribute their blood and treasure to fight for their country, but I'm equally sure that your society that can conscript and tax would raise more resources, because it can make everybody including the cowardly and the selfish survive.
 
Second, I do believe that such a  society would inevitably disintegrate or turn in on itself in revolution as the losers of an unfettered free market either turned away from or turned on the winners. Don't get me wrong, I hate envy politics with a passion and don't believe in acquiring other peoples resources to allow anybody to live comfortably without the appropriate amount of work. However, I do think that we have a social obligation to ensure that people have the basic level of healthcare, education and social security to survive and work their way to independence when we can afford to do so. Apart from the moral dimension a society that fails to do that is a society where its better off citizens will always be looking over their shoulder.
 
My final point is that I consider the argument that a person has the right to 100% of what they produce is flawed. None of us are 100% responsible for what we produce ... we can only do so because we are provided with benefits derived from collective action, such as law and order, national defence and non-patentable intellectual property at the minimum, with this extending to various public works which have varying levels of legitimacy depending on your beliefs. As far as I'm concerned if you have to benefit from something your country provides to prosper, then you can pay for it and if you don't like that then that is bad luck. The flip side of this is that while I don't think property rights are sacred, I think they are important and as I have said the government had better have a damn good reason before impinging on them.
 
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