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Subject: What the US Healthcare debate is really about
Aussiegunneragain    9/14/2009 6:05:16 AM
Dreading getting sick not healthy Andrew Sullivan | September 14, 2009 Article from: The Australian THERE are many valid criticisms to be made of US healthcare, but let me tell a story that helps explain its strengths. Only 15 years ago, the retrovirus HIV was killing thousands in the US - six times as many young Americans have died of AIDS as died in Vietnam -- and researchers had never found a way to stop such a sophisticated and constantly evolving organism from burying itself in people's immune systems and slowly destroying them. I was told in 1993 that I had a few years to live. I write this 16 years later with a stronger immune system than I have ever measured before. The US's much-maligned healthcare system did this. Without this vast and free market in medical care and pharmaceuticals, without the potential for making large amounts of money from affluent and insured patients, the innovation of treatments would never have occurred at the pace it did. Yes, publicly funded research was also vital - but it is rightly restricted to basic science, not finessing drugs for humans. Now we have dozens of anti-HIV drugs, from private companies competing with each other, and my life is saved. How do I put a price on that? Here's the catch. This miraculous process was possible for me only because I had insurance through my employer. When I quit my job editing The New Republic, in part to grapple with HIV's toll, my employer compassionately allowed me to stay on staff at a low salary solely to protect me from going without insurance at all. You see: once without insurance in America, I would never have been able to get it again. I would have had a "pre-existing condition" and no insurance company would have accepted me. An uninsured freelancer with HIV had one option if he were to survive - heading fast into personal bankruptcy. If I had finally lost everything, I would then have been able to apply for public assistance. Losing everything you have ever had to prevent your own death was nearly my fate. It is the fate of many in the US - not the very poor, who are helped, however badly and expensively, in hospital emergency rooms - but the working middle classes who lose their healthcare soon after they lose their job. It is this that is at the centre of Barack Obama's proposals for reform. Yes, finding a way to control soaring costs is essential, and Obama's final compromise bill, especially if it is without an option for an affordable publicly provided plan, doesn't do nearly enough. Nonetheless, what the President was really selling last week was a little more middle-class security. And that was why it was more politically lethal, I suspect, than the pundit class has yet to absorb. Some see the potency of this move. Back in 1993, when the Clintons proposed a much more ambitious plan, Republican strategist Bill Kristol wrote a famous memo arguing that the Right should not negotiate or propose an alternative but should simply do all it could to kill the bill. In it, he shrewdly homed in on the danger as he saw it: "The long-term political effects of a successful Clinton healthcare bill will be even worse - much worse (than its medical consequences). It will re-legitimise middle-class dependency for 'security' on government spending and regulation. It will revive the reputation of the party that spends and regulates, the Democrats, as the generous protector of middle-class interests. And it will at the same time strike a punishing blow against Republican claims to defend the middle class by restraining government." I understand this sentiment and, given my libertarian leanings, tend to resist government intervention when it is unnecessary. I opposed the Clinton plan as too centrally dictated and bureaucratic. In an ideal world, I'd like to scrap the US system entirely, sever the connection between employment and health insurance, allow individuals to buy insurance from competing healthcare exchanges, and leave the rest to fee-for-service medicine. But it is a political fact that this won't happen in America. Obama's speech last week was therefore directed at people like me: suspicious of change and government, but aware the system is both inefficient and at some point cruel, even immoral. He played the Burkean card: "I believe it makes more sense to build on what works and fix what doesn't, rather than try to build an entirely new system from scratch." He dangled the prospect of relief: "As soon as I sign this bill, it will be against the law for insurance companies to drop your coverage when you get sick, or water it down when you need it most." And here's the best pitch for universal healthcare to conservatives in a long time: "That large-heartedness - that concern and regard for the plight of others - is not a partisan feeling. It is not a Republican or a Democratic feeling. It, too, is part of the American character." This patriotic appeal was the real import o
 
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buzzard       9/28/2009 9:58:38 AM
Actual question: How is medical care provided to the minors in the USA? Is it for the parents to pay for their insurances, or is there a public healthcare aspect to the school in which a minor goes to?
 
 There is a program called SCHIP which covers children of people who are even well above the poverty line (not sure what the income threshold is, but probably 50K household income or so, could find the number with a cursory search). As for healthcare in school, no that is minimal. There's a lot of wingnuts out there (on either end), who object to schools having much to do with health care.
 
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buzzard       9/28/2009 10:03:17 AM
Maybe so but are you going to claim that he ran on the same libertarian platform that Warpig and others are claiming to  represent "Americanism"?
 
 No, I am going to 'claim' that he ran on a program that was fuzzy as hell and lacking in specifics. He did this to a masterful enough degree that people across the political spectrum were willing to buy what he was selling without bothering to check his history to any degree. Had they done so, they would have seen him for the consummate BS artist that he is.
 
As for a libertarian platform succeeding, well that's probably not going to work. While it is traditional Americanism (as in founding era and such), people have been weaned into dependence on the nanny state too much over the years to likely let it go to the degree necessary. Heck, even getting rid of the mortgage deduction will never happen, even if it were to be replaced with a numerically larger tax cut. People don't really like change no matter how much they prattle on about it and buy into politicians selling it. 
 
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Mikko    @buzzard   9/28/2009 12:28:44 PM

Actual question: How
is medical care provided to the minors in the USA? Is it for the
parents to pay for their insurances, or is there a public healthcare
aspect to the school in which a minor goes to?

 
 There is a program called SCHIP which covers children of people who are even well above the poverty line (not sure what the income threshold is, but probably 50K household income or so, could find the number with a cursory search). As for healthcare in school, no that is minimal. There's a lot of wingnuts out there (on either end), who object to schools having much to do with health care.

Thank you. The debate about the healthcare reform makes much better sense to me now.
Mikko
 
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Aussiegunneragain       9/29/2009 8:48:36 AM





What words did I put into your mouth? I was merely pointing out the potential conseqences of such a quarantine policy in an entirely free healthcare market to you and didn't mis-represent you in any way. I'd actually be more inclined to find a debating opponent with better reading comprehension skills, rather than an "easier" one as you suggest in that somewhat superior manner.








These words,

 

But they wouldn't be able to afford treatment so the reality is that they would be quarenteened until they die. Good argument. 


 

You claimed my argument was one of letting persons be quarantined until they die.  That is neither a "good argument" nor is it mine. It wasn't my intention to impress a superior manner so I apologize but that is the second time you have attributed to me a position that I do not share.


 

I was stating that the consequence of your argument would have been that that people would in likelihood be kept in quarantine until they die from being unable to afford treatment. That is different from stating that you were arguing that this should be the case which you clearly were not. Sorry if you though this was what I was suggesting, but I can only assure you that this wasn't the case.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       9/29/2009 9:00:29 AM
 
 No, I am going to 'claim' that he ran on a program that was fuzzy as hell and lacking in specifics. He did this to a masterful enough degree that people across the political spectrum were willing to buy what he was selling without bothering to check his history to any degree. Had they done so, they would have seen him for the consummate BS artist that he is.


Funny, I never saw him as selling anything other than what a latte sipping lefty would. He had supported universal healthcare amongst other left-wing positions like a more dovish foriegn policy for years prior to and during the campaign. Irrespective of just how left wing he actually is I think people can only have bought into those political positions because they have a different view of what America should be like to what you guy's do.
Incidentally I'm not that fussed on the guy, especially with respect to his protectionist trade ideology, but if I was American I would probably have voted for him for one term to get some sort of universal healthcare system up and running then dump him for somebody with a less intrusive view of how government should operate more generally. He was certainly the better option than Senator Geriatric Codger on Death's Door and his running mate (and successor in the likely event that he dropped dead in office), Governor 1950's Starch Commercial Queen.
 
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buzzard       9/29/2009 10:15:42 AM
Funny, I never saw him as selling anything other than what a latte sipping lefty would. He had supported universal healthcare amongst other left-wing positions like a more dovish foriegn policy for years prior to and during the campaign. Irrespective of just how left wing he actually is I think people can only have bought into those political positions because they have a different view of what America should be like to what you guy's do.

You evidently aren't exposed to the same news we are. His 'dovish' foreign policy included bombing Pakistan. His universal health care plan included mocking Hillary during the debates about mandating universal coverage. He pulled the same line when debating McCain. He expressly said that coverage would not be mandatory in his plan during the campaign. Maybe you weren't paying attention and missed that detail (what a shocker). His voting record was never mentioned by the press, and any citation of how leftist he was was dismissed as either racist or right wing fabrication. It's very clear you have no idea of how this election went. Of course that doesn't stop you from lecturing us.

Incidentally I'm not that fussed on the guy, especially with respect to his protectionist trade ideology, but if I was American I would probably have voted for him for one term to get some sort of universal healthcare system up and running then dump him for somebody with a less intrusive view of how government should operate more generally. He was certainly the better option than Senator Geriatric Codger on Death's Door and his running mate (and successor in the likely event that he dropped dead in office), Governor 1950's Starch Commercial Queen.
 
 While I've never had much use for McCain, he was by far the lesser of these two evils. In spite of your almost religious fervor for socialized medicine, it's not popular here and that's clear from how the O plan is faring at the moment. McCain had a very good health care plan, which you've shown ignorance of, and dismissed out of hand because it doesn't fit your statist notions of how things have to work.
 
Of course slagging on Palin also shows your shallow knowledge of the campaign. She was the both vicious example of political character assassination we've seen in the modern age. Hell if the term Borking didn't exist already, it would be Palining. 
 
You might want to actually look up the woman's real record. She was an excellent governor, who did what she promised to do after being elected. She fought corruption, and improved the efficiency of state services. She was no radical right winger, nor ignorant hick as the media has portrayed her. However the McCain campaign, run by morons, left her out to dry and her image is now thoroughly trashed. Sure, she was a bit  raw to be a VP selection, but that wasn't her fault. She tried to do what she considered best for her party and country, and good god she paid a dear price for it.
 
I don't much see her ever coming back on the national stage after the degree to which she's be inundated in mud, but good lord if anyone has a single fair bone in their body, they ought to look at her real history rather than buying into the BS media image that was made around her. 
 
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sentinel28a       9/29/2009 2:37:23 PM
But...but...Palin is stupid!
 
Rolling Stone told me so.  It must be true.
 
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warpig       9/29/2009 3:05:40 PM
Buzzard, yet another outstanding post, as always.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       9/30/2009 5:21:06 AM

His universal health care plan included mocking Hillary during the debates about mandating universal coverage. He pulled the same line when debating McCain. He expressly said that coverage would not be mandatory in his plan during the campaign. Maybe you weren't paying attention and missed that detail (what a shocker). His voting record was never mentioned by the press, and any citation of how leftist he was was dismissed as either racist or right wing fabrication. It's very clear you have no idea of how this election went. Of course that doesn't stop you from lecturing us.
 
You were saying?
 
 
 
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warpig       9/30/2009 12:13:51 PM




His universal health care plan included mocking Hillary during the debates about mandating universal coverage. He pulled the same line when debating McCain. He expressly said that coverage would not be mandatory in his plan during the campaign. Maybe you weren't paying attention and missed that detail (what a shocker). His voting record was never mentioned by the press, and any citation of how leftist he was was dismissed as either racist or right wing fabrication. It's very clear you have no idea of how this election went. Of course that doesn't stop you from lecturing us.

link...
 
You were saying?


 
You were saying?
 
 
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