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Subject: What the US Healthcare debate is really about
Aussiegunneragain    9/14/2009 6:05:16 AM
Dreading getting sick not healthy Andrew Sullivan | September 14, 2009 Article from: The Australian THERE are many valid criticisms to be made of US healthcare, but let me tell a story that helps explain its strengths. Only 15 years ago, the retrovirus HIV was killing thousands in the US - six times as many young Americans have died of AIDS as died in Vietnam -- and researchers had never found a way to stop such a sophisticated and constantly evolving organism from burying itself in people's immune systems and slowly destroying them. I was told in 1993 that I had a few years to live. I write this 16 years later with a stronger immune system than I have ever measured before. The US's much-maligned healthcare system did this. Without this vast and free market in medical care and pharmaceuticals, without the potential for making large amounts of money from affluent and insured patients, the innovation of treatments would never have occurred at the pace it did. Yes, publicly funded research was also vital - but it is rightly restricted to basic science, not finessing drugs for humans. Now we have dozens of anti-HIV drugs, from private companies competing with each other, and my life is saved. How do I put a price on that? Here's the catch. This miraculous process was possible for me only because I had insurance through my employer. When I quit my job editing The New Republic, in part to grapple with HIV's toll, my employer compassionately allowed me to stay on staff at a low salary solely to protect me from going without insurance at all. You see: once without insurance in America, I would never have been able to get it again. I would have had a "pre-existing condition" and no insurance company would have accepted me. An uninsured freelancer with HIV had one option if he were to survive - heading fast into personal bankruptcy. If I had finally lost everything, I would then have been able to apply for public assistance. Losing everything you have ever had to prevent your own death was nearly my fate. It is the fate of many in the US - not the very poor, who are helped, however badly and expensively, in hospital emergency rooms - but the working middle classes who lose their healthcare soon after they lose their job. It is this that is at the centre of Barack Obama's proposals for reform. Yes, finding a way to control soaring costs is essential, and Obama's final compromise bill, especially if it is without an option for an affordable publicly provided plan, doesn't do nearly enough. Nonetheless, what the President was really selling last week was a little more middle-class security. And that was why it was more politically lethal, I suspect, than the pundit class has yet to absorb. Some see the potency of this move. Back in 1993, when the Clintons proposed a much more ambitious plan, Republican strategist Bill Kristol wrote a famous memo arguing that the Right should not negotiate or propose an alternative but should simply do all it could to kill the bill. In it, he shrewdly homed in on the danger as he saw it: "The long-term political effects of a successful Clinton healthcare bill will be even worse - much worse (than its medical consequences). It will re-legitimise middle-class dependency for 'security' on government spending and regulation. It will revive the reputation of the party that spends and regulates, the Democrats, as the generous protector of middle-class interests. And it will at the same time strike a punishing blow against Republican claims to defend the middle class by restraining government." I understand this sentiment and, given my libertarian leanings, tend to resist government intervention when it is unnecessary. I opposed the Clinton plan as too centrally dictated and bureaucratic. In an ideal world, I'd like to scrap the US system entirely, sever the connection between employment and health insurance, allow individuals to buy insurance from competing healthcare exchanges, and leave the rest to fee-for-service medicine. But it is a political fact that this won't happen in America. Obama's speech last week was therefore directed at people like me: suspicious of change and government, but aware the system is both inefficient and at some point cruel, even immoral. He played the Burkean card: "I believe it makes more sense to build on what works and fix what doesn't, rather than try to build an entirely new system from scratch." He dangled the prospect of relief: "As soon as I sign this bill, it will be against the law for insurance companies to drop your coverage when you get sick, or water it down when you need it most." And here's the best pitch for universal healthcare to conservatives in a long time: "That large-heartedness - that concern and regard for the plight of others - is not a partisan feeling. It is not a Republican or a Democratic feeling. It, too, is part of the American character." This patriotic appeal was the real import o
 
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reefdiver       9/14/2009 10:49:12 AM
"If this passes, Obama will become a hero to the Democratic Party. And if it works, he will be a hero to everyone who, like me, once feared sickness because it meant potential bankruptcy."
 
So it boils down not to protecting your life - but bankruptcy protection. Not to necessarily protect just your life, but your assets. So we're talking mainly about protecting assets. Everyone should be protected against bankruptcy due to medical issues. And it is everyone else who should assure this.  My friends, this is what is called collectivism and socialism. If we're going down this path then at least have the decency to call it what it is. Proudly shout it from the rooftops and change the name of the Democratic Party to what it really should be: the Social Democratic Party.
 
Benjamin Franklin wrote "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety".  Jefferson wrote "We must make our election between economy and liberty or profusion (of government) and servitude (to government)". But hey - they've been dead some 200 years. Why should we listen to anything they wrote...
 
If the most prominent bills in the house and senate pass as currently written - and that of course is the most significant factor - they will cost this country additional trillions, they will destroy hundreds of thousands of jobs in the insurance industry, and create the largest bureacracy in government outside of the military. This will all be done in the name of the financial security of the individual. The vaunted "insurance exchanges" will soon disappear in the face of competition from government insurance that is its backed by US taxpayers and along with them the insurance companies.  In our desire to be compassionate for a few, we will take money and liberties from the rest of America. We're even requiring people to purchase insurance (don't worry, it won't be long until it will simply be another government deduction from your paycheck).
 
What do people not understand about the word "socialism"? Here's a definition from dictionary.com:  " (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles".  You can call these bills nothing but collectivist.
 
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buzzard       9/14/2009 11:21:29 AM
Lest it be forgotten Mr. Sullivan is in the middle of a quid pro quo with the administration:
 
h--p://pajamasmedia.com/ronradosh/2009/09/11/andrew-sullivans-bust-the-real-issue/

To sum up, he was busted for possession of weed, and the DoJ decided to waive prosecution in his case, but not in any others.
 
I guess it's good to suck up to the king. 
 
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sentinel28a       9/14/2009 4:40:48 PM
Wasn't Andrew Sullivan also the guy who started the "Trig is not Sarah's baby" meme?
 
He's partially right, though: what the US health care debate is really about is not health care.  Everyone agrees that it needs reform, that costs are spiraling upwards, and things are not getting any better.  However, some of the more obvious reforms have been skipped over by the Democrats.  This is about creating an American people who are solely dependent on the government for everything--medical care, energy, cars--a command economy at best similar to that of the UK's and at worst similar to that of the Soviet Union.
 
So it's not about health care.  It's about control--namely, political control.  A people who get handouts from the government tend to vote for those handing out the goodies.
 
The amazing thing about all this isn't that Obama's asking us to hand over medical care to bureaucrats.  The amazing thing is that Obama wants us to ignore the freight train coming right at us called "how are we going to pay for this?"
 
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FJV    The government is allowed to do anything it wants as long as it is nothing.   9/14/2009 5:31:50 PM
It's about libertarianism, where the government can exactly do nothing to fix healthcare. As a matter of fact the government should do less instead of more. And it's not just about healthcare, it's about everything where the government could play a useful role. The government should do nothing and tax nothing.
 
Because of this you will meet the same resistance if the govt. wants to:
- Increase regulation on banks and/or coorperations.
- Stop unilateral free trade policies and levee import taxes.
- Use provisions in the trade agreements against dumping of foreign products.
- Increase taxes on the top 1% income group.
- Increase any taxes.
- Fund research and start a trade policy.
- Bail out strategic industries.
- Stop illegal immigration.
Anything really.....

This fad will end up just as damaging to the West as the "political correctness" or the "global warming" fad. If it's stupid and it's rightwing, it's still stupid in my opinion. Somehow "wanting" the govt. to fix this without allowing the govt. any realistic way to have the funds to fix this is weird.
 
Of course there are also the masochists that would prefer the govt would have done nothing to prevent worse. They do not seem to mind when their bank goes "poof" in a bankruptcy along with their savings and their pension.
 
 

 
 
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Nanheyangrouchuan       9/14/2009 6:35:18 PM
No one, least of all me, is arguing that upper end health care should not profit driven.  That is what keeps us ahead of the pack and will for the forseeable future.
 
Its the lower end of health care that is the most profitable and is the most manipulated by the health insurance industry.  It is the only industry in which you can be refused access to the product/service that you have paid for based on a judgement issued by someone who doesn't even have to explain the logic behind their reason, and you rarely if ever get to sue the insurance provider for not providing what you have paid for or making a decision on the service you have paid for that directly leads to your physical harm and/or death.
 
People like FJV probably own stock in health insurance companies and don't mind seeing people die just to increase profit margin and therefore stock prices.
 
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reefdiver       9/14/2009 8:02:35 PM

No one, least of all me, is arguing that upper end health care should not profit driven.  That is what keeps us ahead of the pack and will for the forseeable future.

Its the lower end of health care that is the most profitable and is the most manipulated by the health insurance industry.  It is the only industry in which you can be refused access to the product/service that you have paid for based on a judgement issued by someone who doesn't even have to explain the logic behind their reason, and you rarely if ever get to sue the insurance provider for not providing what you have paid for or making a decision on the service you have paid for that directly leads to your physical harm and/or death.

People like FJV probably own stock in health insurance companies and don't mind seeing people die just to increase profit margin and therefore stock prices.

Actually, you'll find the insurance companies have had their hands slapped by government fines quite a number of times. There is little doubt they get overly agressive. In general, if you have and continue paying for your insurance, it can't be taken from your. Lie or neglect to mention something on an insurance application and you'll likely be surprised when you can least afford it.
Oddly, I'm finding few people who don't believe there needs to be some sort of reform in the health insurance and healthcare business. The most substantial disagreement comes on letting the government take things over. 

 
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Nan   9/15/2009 6:55:59 AM


 

People like FJV probably own stock in health insurance companies and don't mind seeing people die just to increase profit margin and therefore stock prices.


I suggest you re-read FJV's post, he doesn't appear to be somebody who is batting for the health insurance companies to me.

 
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Aussiegunneragain    Reefdiver   9/15/2009 7:15:40 AM
So if US health policy continues to let people go into personal bankruptcy when they get shafted by their health insurance company as a result of a chronic, like you seem to be advocating should be the case, what do you suggest doing with the individual once his or her money for treatment has run out? The only option according to strict libertarian principles would be to let the person fend for themselves, which either means dying or if they are lucky getting continued treatment through charities.
 
You probably wouldn't worry about this because you can use your wife's knowledge of health insurance products to ensure that you have a policy that prevents it happening from you. However, the reality is that health insurance is a complex product and many  people will have difficulty differentiating a good policy from a bad one, that is if they actually get the choice rather than having their employer choose for them. They want the assurance that well-designed regulations around things like pre-existing conditions to protect them from making a mistake that can't be corrected because it would result in them ending up dead. As far as I am concerned that is a quite reasonable expectation for people to have of their government and if they want to elect a government that provides it and you don't like that, then that is just bad luck for you.
 
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Reefdiver (typo corrected)   9/15/2009 7:38:43 AM
 
So if US health policy continues to let people go into personal bankruptcy when they get shafted by their health insurance company as a result of a chronic illness, like you seem to be advocating should be the case, what do you suggest doing with the individual once his or her money for treatment has run out? The only option according to strict libertarian principles would be to let the person fend for themselves, which either means dying or if they are lucky getting continued treatment through charities.
 
You probably wouldn't worry about this because you can use your wife's knowledge of health insurance products to ensure that you have a policy that prevents it happening from you. However, the reality is that health insurance is a complex product and many  people will have difficulty differentiating a good policy from a bad one, that is if they actually get the choice rather than having their employer choose for them. They want the assurance that well-designed regulations around things like pre-existing conditions to protect them from making a mistake that can't be corrected, because it would result in them ending up dead. As far as I am concerned that is a quite reasonable expectation for people to have of their government.
 
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Reefdiver (typos corrected again)   9/15/2009 7:40:50 AM

Sorry, long day at the office.  

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So if US health policy continues to let people go into personal bankruptcy when they get shafted by their health insurance company as a result of a chronic illness, like you seem to be advocating should be the case, what do you suggest doing with the individual once his or her money for treatment has run out? The only option according to strict libertarian principles would be to let the person fend for themselves, which either means dying or if they are lucky getting continued treatment through charities.
 
You probably wouldn't worry about this because you can use your wife's knowledge of health insurance products to ensure that you have a policy that prevents it happening from you. However, the reality is that health insurance is a complex product and many  people will have difficulty differentiating a good policy from a bad one, that is if they actually get the choice rather than having their employer choose for them. They want the assurance that well-designed regulations around things like pre-existing conditions to protect them from making a mistake that can't be corrected because it would result in them ending up dead. As far as I am concerned that is a quite reasonable expectation for people to have of their government and if they want to elect a government that provides it and you don't like that, then that is just bad luck for you.
 
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