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Subject: Good analysis
usajoe1    7/8/2009 10:43:32 PM
By Nile Gardiner, July 7th, 2009

It is hard to fathom what the United States will gain from Barack Obama?s much-hyped agreement with Dmitry Medvedev to further cut America?s nuclear arsenal. Washington and Moscow have agreed in principle a framework to reduce their nukes by about a third, to 1,500 to 1,675 warheads over the next seven years. Even more significantly, the two leaders have pledged to cut their nuclear delivery systems (intercontinental ballistic missiles and long-range bombers for example) to just 500-

1,100 units, a move that works greatly to Russia?s advantage as its force projection is far weaker than the U.S. in this area.

The new deal, which Obama hopes to wrap up with the Kremlin by December, creates a far more level playing field for the Russians, whose strategic conventional weapons capability is greatly outclassed by that of the Americans, and whose deteriorating nuclear weapons stockpile is aging and in decline. The whole agreement makes no sense, and is little more than a vanity exercise for Barack Obama who has ludicrously pledged to carve out a nuclear-free world. Surely a better strategy would be to further build up America?s defences, including a global missile defence shield, rather than cut defence spending and further gut the superpower?s nuclear capability.

At this rate, even Jimmy Carter looks like General Patton compared to the dove-like current U.S. president. Why cut nuclear weapons at a time when rogue regimes such as North Korea and Iran are busy building their own programmes? Does the President seriously believe this move will encourage the likes of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or Kim Jong Il to renounce their nuclear designs? What evidence is there in history that a unilateral policy of disarmament will prompt tyrannical regimes to change their behaviour?

It is also unclear what kind of odious quid pro quo deal Washington will have to sign up to in order move the agreement forward. President Medvedev, who serves as little more than Vladimir Putin?s right hand, has made it abundantly clear that the United States will have to sacrifice any plans for a ?third site? missile defence system in eastern and central Europe for Moscow to sign up to a news arms treaty. This would be a huge betrayal of key U.S. allies Poland and the Czech Republic. No doubt Moscow will also demand the Obama administration give the Russians a bigger say over NATO expansion eastwards, including blocking the entry of Georgia and Ukraine.

By agreeing to a grand bargain with the Medvedev/Putin regime, President Obama has unwisely opened a Pandora?s box of concessions that will only enhance Russia?s hand in its ?Near Abroad?. At the same time, the Obama administration?s naïve approach will strengthen the resolve of America?s enemies such as Iran to aggressively pursue their nuclear ambitions and exploit the weakness of a president who is gravely undercutting American global power in an increasingly dangerous world.


 
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DarthAmerica       7/9/2009 11:35:10 PM

By Nile Gardiner, July 7th, 2009

It is hard to fathom what the United States will gain from Barack Obama?s much-hyped agreement with Dmitry Medvedev to further cut America?s nuclear arsenal. Washington and Moscow have agreed in principle a framework to reduce their nukes by about a third, to 1,500 to 1,675 warheads over the next seven years. Even more significantly, the two leaders have pledged to cut their nuclear delivery systems (intercontinental ballistic missiles and long-range bombers for example) to just 500- 1,100 units, a move that works greatly to Russia?s advantage as its force projection is far weaker than the U.S. in this area. 

Hard to fathom? Not if you aren't biased and educated on the matter. What America gains is billions of dollars in savings every year by not having to maintain and keep operational thousands of aging nuclear weapons that were designed to be deployed during the Cold War. Remember how people lament about the DoD not having enough money for this and that? Well here is a good effort to make funds available that would have otherwise been wasted. Cutting delivery systems is also a good move for the same reasons.
As to the assertion that this is to Russia's advantage, how? Because on paper it will look like the Russians have nuclear parity? Please. The Russians will have trouble maintaining even this reduced arsenal and would never be able to reconstitute their weapons of delivery systems as quickly as the United Stated could in the event that the treaty broke down. Speaking of treaty, per the NPT, an often overlooked and misunderstood document we are supposed to disarm and reduce nuclear stockpiles. THIS MOVE IS US AND RUSSIAN COMPLIANCE. The NPT is what stops nuclear arms from proliferating to nations who actually have the technology to make them and miniaturize them so as to be useful weapons.

Key Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) Provisions

Article I: Each nuclear-weapon State (NWS) Party (limited to United States, United Kingdom, China, France and Russia) undertakes not to transfer, to any recipient, nuclear weapons, or other nuclear explosive devices, and not to assist any non-nuclear weapon state to manufacture or acquire such weapons or devices.

Article II: Each non-nuclear-weapon State (NNWS) Party undertakes not to receive, from any source, nuclear weapons, or other nuclear explosive devices; not to manufacture or acquire such weapons or devices; and not to receive any assistance in their manufacture.

Article III: Each non-nuclear weapon State (NNWS) Party undertakes to conclude an agreement with the IAEA for the application of its safeguards to all nuclear material in all of the state's peaceful nuclear activities and to prevent diversion of such material to nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices.

Article VI: The states undertake to negotiate toward general and complete disarmament under strict and effective international control.

Article X: Establishes the right to withdraw from the Treaty. It also establishes the duration of the Treaty (25 years before 1995 Extension Initiative).



The new deal, which Obama hopes to wrap up with the Kremlin by December, creates a far more level playing field for the Russians, whose strategic conventional weapons capability is greatly outclassed by that of the Americans, and whose deteriorating nuclear weapons stockpile is aging and in decline. The whole agreement makes no sense, and is little more than a vanity exercise for Barack Obama who has ludicrously pledged to carve out a nuclear-free world. Surely a better strategy would be to further build up America?s defences, including a global missile defence shield, rather than cut defence spending and further gut the superpower?s nuclear capability. 
 
Lunacy. All NPT signatories pledged this. The Cold War is over and we have enough weapons remaining to be overkill many times over. Especially considering how much more accurate and effective weapons can be now. And it has nothing to do with Obama. President Bush, like all POTUS before him post NPT, also sought to cut nuclear weapons... 

 

...as did their Russian counterparts! 
 

At this rate, even Jimmy Carter looks like General Patton compared to the dove-like current U.S. president. Why cut nuclear weapons at a time when rogue regimes such as North Korea and Iran are busy building their own programmes? Does the President seriously believe this move will encourage the likes of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or Kim Jong Il to renounce their nuclear designs? What evidence is there in history that a unilateral policy of disarmament will prompt tyrannical regimes to change their behaviour? 
 
Here is where the writer of this article demonstrates a complete misunderstanding and ignorance of the topic. North Korea has not even demonstrated a functional nuclear weapon and there is no Iranian nuclear design to speak of. North Korea exploded a nuclear device, DEVICE as opposed to WEAPON. Exploding a device is not the same as miniaturizing and mating that device to a delivery system that can reliably survive the rigors of the delivery process and then create an atomic explosion! So on the basis of the isolated N Korean science experiment the USA should embark upon a Cold War build up and ditch the NPT because a rogue regime is trying to stay in the new cycle so as to get foreign aid? And Iran who doesn't even have a weapon and who we are not even sure if they are able to make one?

And does this writer understand the definition of "unilateral"? Let me help:

Dictionary: u·ni·lat·er·al   (y&&63;'n&O01;-l&>59;t'&O01;r-&O01;lpronunciation
 
adj.
  1. Of, on, relating to, involving, or affecting only one side: ?a unilateral advantage in defense? (New Republic).
  2. Performed or undertaken by only one side: unilateral disarmament.
  3. Obligating only one of two or more parties, nations, or persons, as a contract or an agreement.
  4. Emphasizing or recognizing only one side of a subject.
  5. Having only one side.
  6. Tracing the lineage of one parent only: a unilateral genealogy.
  7. Botany. Having leaves, flowers, or other parts on one side only.
unilaterally u'ni·lat'er·al·ly adv.  
 
Since this is an agreement by USA AND Russia, this by definition is not unilateral. Quality review of this garbage article would have caught this. That is didn't is a clue into how ignorant the writer is.

It is also unclear what kind of odious quid pro quo deal Washington will have to sign up to in order move the agreement forward. President Medvedev, who serves as little more than Vladimir Putin?s right hand, has made it abundantly clear that the United States will have to sacrifice any plans for a ?third site? missile defence system in eastern and central Europe for Moscow to sign up to a news arms treaty. This would be a huge betrayal of key U.S. allies Poland and the Czech Republic. No doubt Moscow will also demand the Obama administration give the Russians a bigger say over NATO expansion eastwards, including blocking the entry of Georgia and Ukraine. 
 
BULLCRAP. And even still, President Obama didn't budge on the issue of Poland or BMD because he didn't have to. Poland is connected to Iran and land routes into Afghanistan. Rather, Russia, offered Manas and an Airbridge to the USA. 


By agreeing to a grand bargain with the Medvedev/Putin regime, President Obama has unwisely opened a Pandora?s box of concessions that will only enhance Russia?s hand in its ?Near Abroad?. At the same time, the Obama administration?s naïve approach will strengthen the resolve of America?s enemies such as Iran to aggressively pursue their nuclear ambitions and exploit the weakness of a president who is gravely undercutting American global power in an increasingly dangerous world.

So let me get this straight. In this writers mind, the two biggest nuclear powers in the world, publicly agreeing to cut back on nuclear weapons, where one(Russia) of them is necessary if Iran wishes to have a nuclear program, is going to compel Iran to aggressively develop technology they don't have and would need to get from that power(Russia) in the first place? Also, Russia allowing that to happen would be a deal breaker for the USA who doesn't need the treaty as bad as Russia. Yet, somehow, Russia is going to supply nuclear weapons technologies to a nation that is in position to threaten it, piss of America and have hostile troops in Poland and the treaty nullified? Does that make sense. Hell No.

This writer does not know what he is talking about. I have on the other hand shown the:

Strategic

Economic

Legal

Reasons why we are pursuing this treaty. 

-DA 

 
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EvilFishy       7/9/2009 11:47:55 PM

He is a walking, talking logical fallacy. Why anybody even listens to him on a level beyond basic weaponry and infantry tactics is beyond me. If I want an opinion on the best way to park a truck, I will give him a call.

Oh and my super duper secret source tells me that his super duper secret source is full of ****.

 
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usajoe1       7/9/2009 11:51:29 PM
This writer does not know what he is talking about.
 
No DA, you don't know what you're talking about. I trust a guy who is PHD, and an EXPERT! in the field, rather than a guy who thinks his an expert. You'r knowledge on the subject has zero credibility, as you're still hypnotized by Obama. When you wake up from your hope and change dream, then maybe you can see how wrong you are.
 
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DarthAmerica       7/10/2009 12:16:01 AM

This writer does not know what he is talking about.
 

No DA, you don't know what you're talking about. I trust a guy who is PHD, and an EXPERT! in the field, rather than a guy who thinks his an expert. You'r knowledge on the subject has zero credibility, as you're still hypnotized by Obama. When you wake up from your hope and change dream, then maybe you can see how wrong you are.


Sure son. Just respond to the data. If you can...

-DA 
 
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usajoe1       7/10/2009 12:51:07 AM
Sure son. Just respond to the data. If you can...
 
PHD Nile Gardiner. already told you everything you need to know about my views on the subject, so wake up and smell the coffee, self proclaimed expert. 
 
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lurker       7/10/2009 10:45:09 AM
I got to say I agree with DarthAmerica on this. My first thought when I saw the article was that we still have plenty of accurate and lethal nuclear weapons with which to inundate anyone who was unfortunate enough to start a nuclear war with us. Whether they have 1,000 able nuke icbm's or 500 is moot, it is still on the level of MAD with today's capabilities. I'll think  about future disarmaments when they come about. So this is basically a money saver for the military, which I think is a good idea. Russia does not necessarily need to be the big bad wolf who we should never talk to or agree with and who don't abide by agreements.  Lets not forget that before the cold war that we and the Russians were allies in a different war, albeit of convenience.
 
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lurker       7/10/2009 11:02:49 AM
Have to admit that I didn't finish reading the article, but now that I have my opinion remains unchanged. This had nothign to do with Iran or North Korea, no connection. Whether they take any go ahead to build nukes from it would only be to their detriment.
 
The second to last paragraph has no facts, just assertions (much like me ). The fact is that Obama has not given up on the missile defence system yet, nor made any indications that he would publicly, so i'm not going to criticize him for it when it hasn't come to pass. The "no doubt Moscow..." basically means "I think Moscow...", so not relevant to facts, though this article is an interesting oped piece imo.
 
The article is basically deciding to follow one path as if it was the eventual one when there are surely numerous paths to take. I understand that this is the limitation, that there are so many possible scenarios that to talk of them all would take forever, but that also doesn't mean that we should take one path and make it the only possible path to take with  a certain set of actions.
 
This article doesn't need to be "hail savior Obama" or anything like that, but by not stating the possible good along with the possible bad, this article gives me the impression of a bias, which precludes a good unbiased article imo.
 
Even experts have bias that infect their works, no one is immune. Much better to have a much more convincing "pansy" argument and a weak "benefit" argument than only the pansy.
 
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DarthAmerica    @LURKER   7/10/2009 12:53:54 PM

I got to say I agree with DarthAmerica on this. My first thought when I saw the article was that we still have plenty of accurate and lethal nuclear weapons with which to inundate anyone who was unfortunate enough to start a nuclear war with us. Whether they have 1,000 able nuke icbm's or 500 is moot, it is still on the level of MAD with today's capabilities. I'll think  about future disarmaments when they come about. So this is basically a money saver for the military, which I think is a good idea. Russia does not necessarily need to be the big bad wolf who we should never talk to or agree with and who don't abide by agreements.  Lets not forget that before the cold war that we and the Russians were allies in a different war, albeit of convenience.

Thank You for the objectivity. 

-DA 
 
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usajoe1    lurker   7/10/2009 2:46:28 PM
I got to say I agree with DarthAmerica on this. My first thought when I saw the article was that we still have plenty of accurate and lethal nuclear weapons with which to inundate anyone who was unfortunate enough to start a nuclear war with us. Whether they have 1,000 able nuke icbm's or 500 is moot, it is still on the level of MAD with today's capabilities. I'll think  about future disarmaments when they come about. So this is basically a money saver for the military, which I think is a good idea. Russia does not necessarily need to be the big bad wolf who we should never talk to or agree with and who don't abide by agreements.  Lets not forget that before the cold war that we and the Russians were allies in a different war, albeit of convenience.
 
You missed the point completly. Its not about if we have plenty of accurate WH's, its about making Russias weat dream come true. The fact of the matter is we can afford to have the stcokpile we have today, and Russia can't, period. In about seven to ten years Russia is going to have about 1,500 active and viable WH's anyway, so cuting our forces to the same level just to make Russia feal equal  is not in the US NS interest. The only ones that benefit from this is that criminal Putin and his criminal neighbor, PRC, who is building up there forces, and in 10 years time might have double or triple the capabilities it has today. Obama throwing Poland, Ukraine and Georgia under the bus for a reduction of nukes from Russia, which was going to happen anyway, and some fly over rights is a joke, that has that criminal Putin laughing all night long.
 
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lurker       7/10/2009 3:20:06 PM

I got to say I agree with DarthAmerica on this. My first thought when I saw the article was that we still have plenty of accurate and lethal nuclear weapons with which to inundate anyone who was unfortunate enough to start a nuclear war with us. Whether they have 1,000 able nuke icbm's or 500 is moot, it is still on the level of MAD with today's capabilities. I'll think  about future disarmaments when they come about. So this is basically a money saver for the military, which I think is a good idea. Russia does not necessarily need to be the big bad wolf who we should never talk to or agree with and who don't abide by agreements.  Lets not forget that before the cold war that we and the Russians were allies in a different war, albeit of convenience.

 

You missed the point completly. Its not about if we have plenty of accurate WH's, its about making Russias weat dream come true. The fact of the matter is we can afford to have the stcokpile we have today, and Russia can't, period. In about seven to ten years Russia is going to have about 1,500 active and viable WH's anyway, so cuting our forces to the same level just to make Russia feal equal  is not in the US NS interest. The only ones that benefit from this is that criminal Putin and his criminal neighbor, PRC, who is building up there forces, and in 10 years time might have double or triple the capabilities it has today. Obama throwing Poland, Ukraine and Georgia under the bus for a reduction of nukes from Russia, which was going to happen anyway, and some fly over rights is a joke, that has that criminal Putin laughing all night long.


1,500 WH would basically mean that they did not plan on holding to their side of the NPT, which makes this whole point useless as you contend. But what meaning would there be other than bragging rights about having more nukes? (disregarding that the amount now is still MAD). If they decided to break the NPT agreement then they are paying more for overkill that they don't need. Wouldn't it actually be for the better if they feel equal? It would make them less fearful, and we don't want a nuclear power with the nuclear capabilities of Russia fearful of its own security.
It looks to me like you are basing it off the assumption that Russia and the PRC will not abide by the NPT. Our concern at that point shouldn't be imminent nuclear attack on us by them (as long as we have [i guess] more than 200 nukes) but the proliferation. It also seems to me that the countries wanting nuclear weapons the most right now are ones that would be in more of a position to damage them directly in the long term than the US. The question then is are they willing to cut off their nose to spite their face.
 
I agree that  (to my limited knowledge) abandoning Poland, Georgia, and Ukraine would be an act of supreme short-sightedness, but
Obama has taken no such position to my knowledge. We still have missile systems in Poland, and while Russia has declared they will move missiles there if Obama does not remove them, they have not mentioned the supply route through Russia in response, and Obama has not to my knowledge given any answer yet. Once he does it I will curse him thoroughly, but only once it happens .
 
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lurker       7/10/2009 3:23:13 PM
make that anti-missile systems
 
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DarthAmerica    @Lurker and Joe   7/10/2009 3:33:16 PM
Just to be clear. The US position is not to physically and militarily "abandon" Poland. They would still enjoy the benefits of our alliance. What's being asked for by the Russians is that we not put our missiles there. Not because they think it will stop their rockets. That's lunacy when you consider that it's only 10 interceptors of the wrong type with wrong trajectory. No, it's because basing those GBI there mean US Military bases in Poland which evoke fears of 1941 to Russians. It's as untenable to them as IRBMs in Cuba are to us. It's a huge military disadvantage. With regard to Georgia and Ukraine, while I sympathize with their desire to be in NATO, an understanding with Russia that reduces tensions would have the same effect.

What we need from the Russians is access to Afghanistan and Support against Iran with regard to sanctions. This is because Afghanistan is land locked and the routes we use now are through highly unstable Pakistan and we are "Surging" more men there each day. Thats dramatically increased the strain on our logistics. Air and Land routes through Russia and it's proxies would significantly enhance the flow of men and materials and avoid further destabilizing Pakistan.

Help on Iran is important because the Iranian nuclear program and military are dependent on exports from Russia. 
Any sanctions not supported by Russia will fail because they will ignore it. Moreover, Russian supplied arms will
increase the cost in blood of any US/Israeli or coalition military action against Iran. So we wish to isolate the Iranians
which will compel them to negotiate on terms favorable to the USA and if not, fight on terms favorable to the USA.

Why is this bad to you?


-DA 


 
 
Quote    Reply

lurker       7/10/2009 4:10:01 PM

Just to be clear. The US position is not to physically and militarily "abandon" Poland. They would still enjoy the benefits of our alliance. What's being asked for by the Russians is that we not put our missiles there. Not because they think it will stop their rockets. That's lunacy when you consider that it's only 10 interceptors of the wrong type with wrong trajectory. No, it's because basing those GBI there mean US Military bases in Poland which evoke fears of 1941 to Russians. It's as untenable to them as IRBMs in Cuba are to us. It's a huge military disadvantage. With regard to Georgia and Ukraine, while I sympathize with their desire to be in NATO, an understanding with Russia that reduces tensions would have the same effect.




What we need from the Russians is access to Afghanistan and Support against Iran with regard to sanctions. This is because Afghanistan is land locked and the routes we use now are through highly unstable Pakistan and we are "Surging" more men there each day. Thats dramatically increased the strain on our logistics. Air and Land routes through Russia and it's proxies would significantly enhance the flow of men and materials and avoid further destabilizing Pakistan.




Help on Iran is important because the Iranian nuclear program and military are dependent on exports from Russia. 

Any sanctions not supported by Russia will fail because they will ignore it. Moreover, Russian supplied arms will

increase the cost in blood of any US/Israeli or coalition military action against Iran. So we wish to isolate the Iranians

which will compel them to negotiate on terms favorable to the USA and if not, fight on terms favorable to the USA.




Why is this bad to you?







-DA 







 

first paragraph- good take on the poland issue that I didn't think of. With regards to Russia and Georgia, I do agree that it would be in our interests to reduce tentions with Russia, but wouldn't we  also not want them to become Russian satellite states? Thinking of us as equals is good and creates a healthy caution, thinking of us as weak and inferior does just the opposite . Are there idea's for a middle ground where we come to an understanding that Georgia and Ukraine are 'neutral' territory (with perhaps a slight bias to NATO)?
 
second paragraph- I have seen no mention in the papers of pulling those lines in response to the Poland issue by Russia, just (imo) symbolism to respond to symbolism (iskander missiles).
 
third paragraph- Russia seems to be dragging its feet on this issue (with good reason, money and a headache for the US, what more could they want!) Unfortunately I don't see them pulling their support for Iran right up until the last minute. It would make sense for them to make as much as they can off of it and throw them to the 'wolves' once they deem the threat substantial enough. The only possibilities to change this that are obvious to me are to either make a deal which Russia would view as better than export money and a headache for the US, or make supporting the Iranian program more detrimental to their security interests than the afformentioned interests in Iran. While ending Russia's desire to cause the US headaches would be optimal, I believe there is too much water under the bridge even for someone with popularity like Obama to accomplish quickly enough to matter in this case.
 
So to me the questions are what deals could be made that would outweigh the Iran issue with Russia, or in what way could we pull a Nixon and exploit their differences to make Russia view their better interests as checking Iran.
 
 
 
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lurker       7/10/2009 4:11:06 PM
grrr make that Ukraine and Georgia, not Russia and Georgia
 
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usajoe1    DA   7/10/2009 4:30:42 PM
 Just to be clear. The US position is not to physically and militarily "abandon" Poland. They would still enjoy the benefits of our alliance. What's being asked for by the Russians is that we not put our missiles there. Not because they think it will stop their rockets. That's lunacy when you consider that it's only 10 interceptors of the wrong type with wrong trajectory. No, it's because basing those GBI there mean US Military bases in Poland which evoke fears of 1941 to Russians.It's as untenable to them as IRBMs in Cuba are to us. It's a huge military disadvantage.

Last time I checked, Poland was still a NATO ally. Now this might not mean much to you but it does to me. We can have as many toops, or as many missiles as we want in that country, as long as POLAND is ok with it! and not what Russia wants. Russia is in no position militarily to dictate to us what we can do with our allies. As far as fears of 1941 goes, it is nothing but a big joke. There is no sober Russian General that thinks we are actually going to invade Russia. If there is a full blown war between the US and Russia in the foreseeable future, which there is about 99.9% it will not happen, thing will go nuclear so fast that the dumb Poland argument will have no validity.

With regard to Georgia and Ukraine, while I sympathize with their desire to be in NATO, an understanding with Russia that reduces tensions would have the same effect.

You must not understand how that criminial Putin operates. Why do you think he provoked the war in Georgia? this men does not want to see the former Soviet states becoming democratic western states, like Poland, and Czech Republic.
He wants to have puppet governments like the ones in Armenia, Belarus, and Tajikistan, which he can control and keep under his influence. We can't abandon Ukraine and Georgia just because Russia might not like it, this will send a very bad message to the rest of the world.


What we need from the Russians is access to Afghanistan and Support against Iran with regard to sanctions. This is because Afghanistan is land locked and the routes we use now are through highly unstable Pakistan and we are "Surging" more men there each day. Thats dramatically increased the strain on our logistics. Air and Land routes through Russia and it's proxies would significantly enhance the flow of men and materials and avoid further destabilizing Pakistan.
 
You actually think Russia is helping with Iran? Look, the fact of the matter is Russia does not want a nuclear Iran as much as we don't. So even if Russia helps out with Iran it would be in their ntional interest, not ours. Now, I do agree that Russia can help with the logisitcs issue in Afghanistan, but this is not enough to throw our friends under the bus, and weaken our national security.
 
Help on Iran is important because the Iranian nuclear program and military are dependent on exports from Russia. 
Any sanctions not supported by Russia will fail because they will ignore it. Moreover, Russian supplied arms will
increase the cost in blood of any US/Israeli or coalition military action against Iran. So we wish to isolate the Iranians
which will compel them to negotiate on terms favorable to the USA and if not, fight on terms favorable to the USA.

See above^


Why is this bad to you?
 
See above^


 
 
 
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